Ab7#11 or Ab7b5; what’s the diff?

[feloniuspunk]

This kind of stuff has bugged me for years. As I understand it, the real difference between these two chords is implied by their names. The Ab7#11 would never have a 4 in it, since the 11, or 4, is #, but it could have a 5 in it (nice dissonance there with #4 and 5).

The Ab7b5 on the other hand would never have a 5 in it. Putting a 4 in it would make it suspended which would also change its name. My inclination would be to play the Ab7b5 with the 7, the b5 and a b13 (E), some nice dissonance as well.

Ab7#11: 1-3-#4-5-7 Ab, C, D, Eb, Gb

Ab7b5b13: 1-3-b5-b13-7 Ab, C, D, E, Gb

With an Ab9#11b13 you get a nice little whole tone sequence of: Gb, Ab, Bb, C, D, E. Whole tone scales sound really spooky and chords made using whole tone scale segments do too.

I like playing these kind of chords on the inner four strings for tonal reasons.

Ab7#11
E) - - - - - - - - - - - - - mute
B) - - - - - - x - - - - - - Gb/7
G) - - - - - - x - - - - - - D/#11
D) - - - - - x - - - - - - - Ab/1
A) - - - - - x - - - - - - - Eb/5
E) - - - - - - - - - - - - - mute

Ab7b5b13 (also an E9)
E) - - - - - - - - - - - - - mute
B) - - - - - - x - - - - - - Gb/7
G) - - - - - - x - - - - - - D/b5
D) - - - - - x - - - - - - - Ab/1
A) - - - - - - x - - - - - - E/b13
E) - - - - - - - - - - - - - mute

Ab9#11b13 (also an E9#11)
E) - - - - - - - - - - - - - mute
B) - - - - - - x - - - - - - Gb/7
G) - - - - - - x - - - - - - D/#11
D) - - - - - - - x - - - - - Bb/9
A) - - - - - - x - - - - - - E/b13
E) - - - - - - - - - - - - - mute

There are subtle differences between all three chords. If anyone can help to muddy the waters anymore please do. I don't feel I do a very good job of explaining what's in my head.

[TRandy16]

Easy...it's the chord voicing.

What notes/voices are more dominant in the b5 versus the #11? With the #11 you have a dissonance where the "D" and the "Eb" are voiced only one string apart...hence a much "spookier" sounding chord. On the b5 the D next to the Ab sounds much more harmonius. Or did I get something wrong in my equation?

Have you been into the caffeine again? Didn't we warn you about that? ;)

[feloniuspunk]

Tim,

I sent you an email today with some pictures, did you get it? Email me and I'll send it again. I think I sent it to Morgan Music instead of your home email.

[TRandy16]

That's the "big dog" isn't it? The regular Sedona? The 100 watt model? Not the Sedona 55?

[feloniuspunk]

No, that's the 55 watt model with 12" JBL and tweeter. I need your home email address.

me: feloniuspunk@msn.com

[TRandy16]

No, that's the 55 watt model with 12" JBL and tweeter. I need your home email address.

me: feloniuspunk@msn.com
My home e-mail is: timbascom@aol.com

[ernojuhani]

If a scale (chord) has and unaltered 4th then it can have a diminished 5th.
If a scale has a perfect or augumented 5th then it can have a augmented 4th.

However,

In major, harmonic major, harmonic minor, melodic minor, natural minor, whole-tone and diminished harmony there is not a dominant chord that has an unaltered 4th and diminished 5th.

Dominant chords (w/ altered 4ths) derived from these harmonies can be always written as #11. But music is not that simple for most of the time, alterations are just behind the corner.

How about this:

Ab7b5add11?

ej.