How about a good firearm for home defense?

[James]

Judging by the thread Jason started, it sounds like we have some people with fairly good firearm experience here. So, I am going to throw another one out there.

What would you recommend for home defense? Keep in mind, small kids are in the house, so security from them is also an issue.

I’m thinking maybe a short barrel 12 gauge.

[Gavin]

I’m thinking maybe a short barrel 12 gauge.

Nail on the head...remington 870...inexpensive and reliable.

[CustomX]

I've always consistently shot tight groupings with Glocks. Reliable & accurate.

[11top]

Judging by the thread Jason started, it sounds like we have some people with fairly good firearm experience here. So, I am going to throw another one out there.

What would you recommend for home defense? Keep in mind, small kids are in the house, so security from them is also an issue.

I’m thinking maybe a short barrel 12 gauge.

I have a mossberg pistolgrip pump. Can't beat a short barrelled shotgun for home defense.

(I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of a Taurus Judge either).

[Gavin]

I've always consistently shot tight groupings with Glocks. Reliable & accurate.


Thats a great choice but when it comes down to it I want something that packs much more punch. We're talking "home" defense (not concealed/walking around in public) so we're not limited to handguns. No need to go small when you can say all you need by the sound of chambering a round in a pump action.

If I had my way, I'd have my shotgun out and in hand during every traffic stop....hmmm maybe santa will bring me a sling and a change to my departments SOP's.:p

[jimmybcool2]

A 12 gauge is not a bad choice. Only issue is who all is going to use it? If a smaller person or one who will flinch shooting it is, perhaps a smaller gauge shotgun is in order. 20 gauge is effective and easier to handle for recoil if your wife might also use it.

Or, use ammunition that doesn't knock you back hard. Pretty much ANY 12 gauge ammo is going to be effective inside 20 feet. They also make practice ammo for learning how to handle the shotgun and specialized defense ammo that might be lower recoil but still do the job.

I can't stress enough storage is important with children in the house. The problem is how to store so they CAN'T get to it and you CAN get to it FAST. I have no idea since I have no children.

Another point is to learn gun safety and practice some with the weapon so you aren't confused as to when it is loaded, safety on/off, or how to unload if you chambered a round only to discover that noise was a toilet valve breaking in the middle of the night :D

Whatever you choose, keep safety forefront. :dude:

[James]

I can't stress enough storage is important with children in the house. The problem is how to store so they CAN'T get to it and you CAN get to it FAST. I have no idea since I have no children.



Yeah, thats the key issue. Can't get one until I figure that out.

Any ideas for a shotgun?

[lookslikemeband]

Yeah, thats the key issue. Can't get one until I figure that out.

Any ideas for a shotgun?

Gun safe with a digital keypad for silent opening.

You wouldn't want a perp to hear you until (like Gavin said), they hear the unmistakable chambering of a 12 guage.

[cust22]

http://thepiecekeeper.net/index.php?page=more-information

Not a big fan of keys, but it's an option.

[jimmybcool2]

Yeah, waking from deep sleep and finding and using a key is a challenge. OTOH, while you are doing it you are completely waking up so you aren't prepared to fire while still in a dream state.

I have trained myself to not grab at one if I am not fully awake. If the alarm goes off I do not automatically reach for a weapon. It might be a false alarm (power out) or other event and I am not clear enough yet to decide. I wait until I am seeing clear and have a thought process and can identify something that is a threat.

There is an infinitesimal chance that my 30 second delay will allow some bad guy the time to kill my family. I calculate that that chance is much smaller than me grabbing a gun in a half awake situation and hurting someone. Nothing is perfect.

So maybe that 30 second to unlock and chamber a round for you is not a bad idea.

Oh, but the other concern these days is home invasion. For that event the weapon in my office is instantly available with a chambered round. Course, I am usually awake there. :D

Owning and keeping firearms for defense is a responsibility. Every time I read about a young kid dead from playing with a weapon I wish everyone took it that seriously.

[dogbone94]

being the owner of various guns, [pistols,rifles, shotguns] the 12 ga is what is what i keep close by........

[Yossi]

Read the book, "In the Gravest Extreem" by Masad Ayoob.
It is an absolute essential to anyone contemplating firearms for protection.

[FrankiePRS]

Nail on the head...remington 870...inexpensive and reliable.

Great choice. If you are up for a little higher price tag, I have a Saiga 12 gauge (AK47 Shotgun) for home defense - If I ever need it, I want to be able to keep pulling the trigger and do this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gESLOmz-4sc) to the intruders. :dude:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsx1uD3QZ54&feature=fvsr

[Zilmo]

I have a Winchester Stainless Marine 18 inch 12 ga. It is the shlt.

[lookslikemeband]

Great choice. If you are up for a little higher price tag, I have a Saiga 12 gauge (AK47 Shotgun) for home defense - If I ever need it, I want to be able to keep pulling the trigger and do this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gESLOmz-4sc) to the intruders. :dude:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsx1uD3QZ54&feature=fvsr


NOW we're talking!!!!!!!!

DANG!!!

[Big Mike]

Nail on the head...remington 870...inexpensive and reliable.

Agreed.

[G.I.G.]

I bought a Beretta 90-Two .40 cal last year and couldn't be happier. This is an updated version of the tried and true Beretta M9 which is the standard issue sidearm for the U.S. Armed Forces. I was in the Coast Guard and shot very well with the M9 and never had a mis-fire, hence my decision to stick with Beretta. I also wanted to go with a semi-auto handgun that had a manual safety and decocking lever. I've put over a 1,000 rounds through my 90-Two and haven't had a problem.

http://www.beretta90two.com/

We don't have any kids in the house but I will get a small safe at some point in the near future. Right now I keep my Beretta in my night stand with one in the chamber, decocked, and safety on. When I camp, it is next to my pillow. Mountain lions, bears, and meth heads, oh my! ;)

A couple of things to keep in mind when looking for a gun for home defense is that you should consider the highest caliber gun that you can shoot accurately. A lot of counter commandos at gun stores and other know-it-alls will bag on certain calibers and manufactures, but if you can shoot a gun accurately, it is reliable, and you are comfortable with it, that should be the gun you choose for home defense. I promise you, a few well placed rounds of 9mm at center mass will be just as effective at eliminating a threat as .40, .45, .357, etc. if you know what you're doing with it.

Also, if you are using a handgun for home defense, be sure you are using hollow points. You don't want ball ammo going through your wall and into your neighbors house.

[NOMAD]

I would agree that a 12 gauge is a good way to go, especially if you don't have time to draw a really tight bead on your target. I also strongly agree on ensuring what's on the receiving end before squeezing a shot off. Most folks are prone to go searching for the bad guys, it's usually better to wait it out and let them come to you, that way you maintain the element of surprise (they have to sweat out wandering through the minefield). As for the kids, if you use a semi-auto, you can keep a loaded mag separate from the weapon until it's needed and not necessarily worry about a trigger lock, as long as the kiddies can't access the ammo. As for me, I keep a good ol' 1911 under my pillow. B.

[cust22]

The best way to do that is use a safe room. Gather everybody up, get in that room. Who ever comes in before the police get there:eek:!

[Big Mike]

I love Beretta too G.I.G.

I have a 92 and a PX4.

I still say if it's one, it's a 12 guage.

[jimmybcool2]

I'm reading this and agree with much. The part about a .40 S&W for bears though. Makes me think maybe you're camping in the wrong place :D

[gag halfrunt]

Thats a great choice but when it comes down to it I want something that packs much more punch. We're talking "home" defense (not concealed/walking around in public) so we're not limited to handguns. No need to go small when you can say all you need by the sound of chambering a round in a pump action.

If I had my way, I'd have my shotgun out and in hand during every traffic stop....hmmm maybe santa will bring me a sling and a change to my departments SOP's.:p

Gavin brings up a great point here that is often overlooked. Don't put yourself at a disadvantage when you don't have to. Always have the biggest, baddest gun in a gunfight.

Handguns are inherently underpowered and less effective than long guns. They are concealable/very portable, so they are the choice when you're on the go, but if you are in a defensive position (ie at home), use a long gun.

Regarding ammo choice, I say skip buckshot and go for slugs. There isn't a more powerful, cheap, and easy to find round than a shotgun slug, and it delivers an ASTOUNDING amount of energy on target. You just can't imagine how much power there is in a shotgun slug :D

I also avoid buckshot because I don't like the fact that it spreads out, and at 15 yards (undless you've got a choke), your pellets are spreading out beyond the size of a man. That means that even if your shot hits center mass, you will likely have some stray pellets bypass your target. With 00 buck, those are the size of 9mm/380 rounds. Not a small thing to thing about.

The recoil is greater with slugs, but with practice, it can become very manageable.

Finally, I wouldn't use the "racking a round into the chamber sound" as a deterrent. Yes, it sounds cool/badass, etc, but carrying a gun with no round in the chamber puts you at a disadvantage. You don't know where the bad guy is going to be. You want to be ready immediately. To be an effective home defense weapon, it needs to be ready to use, RIGHT NOW. If you get awoken by something in the middle of the night, you might be alert/scared, but you also might forget to cycle the action. A gun has to be ready to use when needed.

[Grapeshot]

I just bought a S&W Sigma 9mm. They are offering a $50 rebate through 31 Dec. Nice hand gun.

[FrankiePRS]

I love Beretta too G.I.G.

I have a 92 and a PX4.

I still say if it's one, it's a 12 guage.


Got a 92 as well, but it's my concealed-carry firearm, not home defense.

[jimmybcool2]

Finally, I wouldn't use the "racking a round into the chamber sound" as a deterrent. Yes, it sounds cool/badass, etc, but carrying a gun with no round in the chamber puts you at a disadvantage. You don't know where the bad guy is going to be. You want to be ready immediately. To be an effective home defense weapon, it needs to be ready to use, RIGHT NOW. If you get awoken by something in the middle of the night, you might be alert/scared, but you also might forget to cycle the action. A gun has to be ready to use when needed.

But in the movies they always rack the slide whenever they want to make a point. Even if they just did it a minute ago. Sometimes many times.

Oddly, my weapons always eject a round when I do that. Kinda wasteful in my world. I've been trying to buy some kewl movie guns but as usual all my dealers have is weapons that Do run out of ammo if fired much. ;)

[Big Mike]

Got a 92 as well, but it's my concealed-carry firearm, not home defense.

Yup.

The purpose of the handgun is to fight your way to the shotgun IMO.

[gag halfrunt]

Yup.

The purpose of the handgun is to fight your way to the shotgun IMO.

LMAO, Mike! Good one :D

[James]

Great choice. If you are up for a little higher price tag, I have a Saiga 12 gauge (AK47 Shotgun) for home defense - If I ever need it, I want to be able to keep pulling the trigger and do this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gESLOmz-4sc) to the intruders. :dude:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsx1uD3QZ54&feature=fvsr


Whoa, that may be the ticket. As Nomad said, the magazine and shells could be secured in a small safe. Hmmmmm.

[G.I.G.]

I love Beretta too G.I.G.

I have a 92 and a PX4.

I still say if it's one, it's a 12 guage.

They let you own guns in California??? :p

What caliber is your PX4 and how do you like it?

[G.I.G.]

The part about a .40 S&W for bears though. Makes me think maybe you're camping in the wrong place :D

I live in Colorado so no grizzlies here, just smaller black bears. And it is not the bears I am as concerned with, it's the mountain lions. While mountain lion attacks on humans are rare, they are very stealthy and capable of taking down an adult. Not to mention, I bring my dog with me camping. She is neither big nor tough, and could easily resemble a coyote (coyote = dinner to mountain lions) which could work to actually attrack a mountain lion to us. Sorry, I am totally off topic now.

Back on subject....I think 12 gauges are a good choice for home defense. However, when I was looking to buy a gun, I wanted one that I could use for multiple purposes in addition to home defense. I obtained my CCW permit so I put my Beretta in my back pack when I go hiking in the mountains, I can keep it in my center console of my car when I go 4-wheel'n or I know I will be going out to the middle of no where. Then when I'm camping in U.S. National Forrests (not National Parks), I can open carry. So for me, since I only own one gun, a semi-automatic handgun was the best fit for the multiple rolls I needed it to fill.

[lookslikemeband]

Yup.

The purpose of the handgun is to fight your way to the shotgun IMO.

HA! :p

[Big Mike]

They let you own guns in California??? :p

What caliber is your PX4 and how do you like it?


9mm with night sites and Kali apprioved 10 round magazine.

AWESOME weapon. It's very comfortable and is a joy to shoot.

[Big Mike]

HA! :p

I'm serious.

[Scott Rosenberger]

I got the Marine (Stainless) version of one of these :dude: Winchester 1300 Marine Defender
Simple and to the point with the Pistol Grip
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg53/scottrosneberger/Win1300.jpg
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg53/scottrosneberger/winchester_1300_coastal_marine.jpg

[jimmybcool2]

I live in Colorado so no grizzlies here, just smaller black bears. And it is not the bears I am as concerned with, it's the mountain lions. While mountain lion attacks on humans are rare, they are very stealthy and capable of taking down an adult. Not to mention, I bring my dog with my camping. She is neither big nor tough, and could easily resemble a coyote (coyote = dinner to mountain lions) which could work to actually attrack a mountain lion to us. Sorry, I am totally off topic now.



Good thing. The .40 would piss a grizzley off :D

You do need to watch out for fido. Although I am betting if and when a mountain lion attacks your dog if will be over so fast you won't even get to wave goodbye to the poor dog. Mountain lions are incredibly fast and strong. Still, at least there is SOME chance of response with a handgun.

[gag halfrunt]

But in the movies they always rack the slide whenever they want to make a point. Even if they just did it a minute ago. Sometimes many times.

Oddly, my weapons always eject a round when I do that. Kinda wasteful in my world. I've been trying to buy some kewl movie guns but as usual all my dealers have is weapons that Do run out of ammo if fired much. ;)

CLASSIC!

Well said.

[Moltisanti]

Have any of you ever had to use your gun in anger? Here in the uk we're not allowed to hurt intruders, we just have to let them steal our stuff and hope they don't slip and end up suing...

[lookslikemeband]

I'm serious.

No, I know you are. That's what makes it funny to me. Cuz I'm the same way. The closest one to me when I sleep at night is my .45 with Nitesiters (I'm hesitant to put an LED on the Picatinny rail as it's also my CCW)

And yes, I'm using it so that I can get to the 12 guage.

So that's why the :p = because I've said the same thing several times.

The .45 is great for CQC (as I don't consider myself a great shot yet) , but if I have an intruder, it's the 12 guage. (Winchester 1200 - full choke) My father's shotgun that I'm very proud to own.

[lookslikemeband]

Have any of you ever had to use your gun in anger? Here in the uk we're not allowed to hurt intruders, we just have to let them steal our stuff and hope they don't slip and end up suing...

Thankfully no. And many might be surprised to find out that 99.99999999% of us pray that we never HAVE to.

[G.I.G.]

Have any of you ever had to use your gun in anger? Here in the uk we're not allowed to hurt intruders, we just have to let them steal our stuff and hope they don't slip and end up suing...

Like lookslikemeband said, most of us hope we never have to use our guns. Even the camping scenarios I mentioned earlier, I would hate to have to shoot an animal and would not do so unless it was absolutely necessary and there were no other options.

Here in Colorado, we have the "Make My Day Law" which allows home owners to use deadly force if there is an intruder in their home. Even then, I would hate to have to kill someone, especially in my own home. With that said, if someone broke into my home, it's game time baby!

Sadly, more states here in the U.S. are adopting the "kinder, gentler" mentality and are passing laws making the victum (person defending themselves or their family) into the perpetrator (having to use force in order to protect themselves). I'm going to stop there because I don't want to turn this into a political rant because I could go on and on about anti-gun/anti-self defense laws that are constantly being pushed through. :mad:

[11top]

Have any of you ever had to use your gun in anger? Here in the uk we're not allowed to hurt intruders, we just have to let them steal our stuff and hope they don't slip and end up suing...

LOL!!!

While I have never had to use my gun in anger (Thank the Lord!), I did have this encounter:

This is a TRUE story, and I am not embellishing it!

Years ago, one summer night on the 4th of July weekend (sorry Motisanti! :p ), my wife said to me, "Did you you hear that? I just heard glass breaking next door at our neighbor's house!"
I thought "sure you did," but just to be Mr. Macho, I grabbed my big 'ol nickle .357 Colt Python and headed out the door. I walked quietly around to the back of my neighbor's house and saw to my surprise and dismay that the back door was standing open. I stood there in the dark for a moment and suddenly, a guy appears at the back door and starts coming down the steps with a TV in his hands. Having watched enough TV that I knew exactly how to handle this situation, I raised my gun and screamed in my best Clint Eastwood voice, "FREEZE M-----F-----!!!!" OK, maybe I didn't yell "MF," but I told the guy to put the TV down and to stand still. :p
I yelled over to my wife to call 911, and the guy and I stood there glaring at each other from about 12 feet apart. At that point, I remember thinking two things. 1) What if he's not alone, and someone comes up behind me? and 2) What am I going to do if this guy comes at me? Clearly, I was not going to shoot this guy unless I had no other choice, so I decided if he comes at me, I would hit this guy with my 6" barrelled Colt.
Sure enough, the guys decides to call my bluff and started walking slowly towards me, and he says as he points at his forehead (and I will NEVER forget this), "Go, ahead and shoot me; I'll see you in Hell!").
Now, remember what weekend I said this was? I am NOT making this next part up!!!
At that moment, someone in the neighborhood, lit a string of firecrackers, and as they began to explode, this dude fell to his knees and started crying, "I've been shot!"
He stayed that way until the police arrived. Not sure if he sh*t his pants, but I wouldn't bet against it. :dude:
THAT IS A TRUE STORY!

[lookslikemeband]

Hey G.I.G ~

After living in CO for the past 22 yrs and moving out here a year and a half ago.... I had to learn the WA state laws regarding this topic.

Washington state doesn’t have a specific Castle Doctrine law ( the aforementioned "Make My Day" Law, but has no duty to retreat as a precedent.



I hope I'm not tip-toeing into the realm of politics... I don't intend to. Just merely stating the facts about the question in hand - home defense.

[lookslikemeband]

LOL!!!

THAT IS A TRUE STORY!


I just laughed out loud reading that story!!! :D

[G.I.G.]

THAT IS A TRUE STORY!

Damn, I would have sh!t my pants.

Also on the topic of home defense, I have several friends that are cops and one is an investigator. He told me that when someone's home has been burglarized, there has almost ALWAYS been someone at the home within the previous weeks leading up to the burglary doing "work". This is the cable guy, phone guy, plumber, carpet cleaners, painter, etc. A lot of these guys don't have to pass background checks and even if they do, they can pass along "info" to their thug friends like "I was at this one dudes house and he had 14 guitars hanging on the wall in his basement!"

Always be very cautious of who you let inside your house and if you do have work done on or in your home, close doors to rooms they don't need to be in, stay with them and make sure they are performing their job and not wandering around, etc. Keep in mind, "random" burglaries are very seldom random!

Speaking of which, the carpet cleaners are coming to my house this week and will be cleaning the carpets in my basement (where I keep my guitars on the "wall of fame").....might need to move the guitars to an off-limits room this week. ;)

[lookslikemeband]

Always be very cautious of who you let inside your house and if you do have work done on or in your home, close doors to rooms they don't need to be in, stay with them and make sure they are performing their job and not wandering around, etc. Keep in mind, "random" burglaries are very seldom random!

Speaking of which, the carpet cleaners are coming to my house this week and will be cleaning the carpets in my basement (where I keep my guitars on the "wall of fame").....might need to move the guitars to an off-limits room this week. ;)


No one comes into "The Man Cave" unless I know them.

:D

[G.I.G.]

Hey G.I.G ~

After living in CO for the past 22 yrs and moving out here a year and a half ago.... I had to learn the WA state laws regarding this topic.

Washington state doesn’t have a specific Castle Doctrine law ( the aforementioned "Make My Day" Law, but has no duty to retreat as a precedent.
At least you did your homework. No duty to retreat at least gives you the right to protect yourself and your family in case of a home invasion. It protects you in your residence which I think should never be questioned.
I hope I'm not tip-toeing into the realm of politics... I don't intend to. Just merely stating the facts about the question in hand - home defense.


It is hard to talk guns and gun laws without grazing the subject of politics just a bit. I think it is relatively safe to say that blue states typically have stricter guns laws than red states but thankfully most states, regardless of political leanings, give you the right to protect yourself in your own home. :)

[G.I.G.]

For those of you sporting 12 gauges for home defense, I've read that a popular ammo configuration is: bird shot---bird shot---buck shot, in that order. The theory behind it is if you miss your target with the bird shot, it doesn't have enough punch to go through your wall and into your neighbors home. A couple rounds of bird shot is enough to stop most intruders. However, if you have a meth head or someone amped up on PCP advancing on you that can take the first couple of rounds of bird shot, the buck shot should be enough to drop them. :cool:

[RustyFalcon]

I agree on a nice shorter 12-gauge for home defense. By shorter I mean not a 24" barrel one - rather one with the shortest barrel and overall length you can have. Rationale is that if you have to move with it in the house - shorter is better and less likely to get hung up on anything.

I also strongly recommend having a weapon mounted light on your shotgun. Why ? If you need to investigate something in the middle of the night a light will be invaluable so you don't have to walk the house flipping on lights. You can use the weapon mounted light to investigate and if it's a nice REALLY bright Surefire or equivalent, you can use it offensively especially in a nice dark house.

And on the slugs you can buy 'reduced recoil' slugs that are really not all that painful to shoot at all.

[gag halfrunt]

For those of you sporting 12 gauges for home defense, I've read that a popular ammo configuration is: bird shot---bird shot---buck shot, in that order. The theory behind it is if you miss your target with the bird shot, it doesn't have enough punch to go through your wall and into your neighbors home. A couple rounds of bird shot is enough to stop most intruders. However, if you have a meth head or someone amped up on PCP advancing on you that can take the first couple of rounds of bird shot, the buck shot should be enough to drop them. :cool:

I've heard these as well, but I don't think you should plan your ammo based on a plan of missing your target. Birdshot spreads even faster than buckshot, and a couple of partial hits with birdshot is not going to be that effective, imo. It's what is known as "addressing a training issue with a hardware fix." Training is what is needed. Training with the right kind of ammo, in this case.

The reality is, if you want to use a gun for personal protection, you need to be very practiced in its use. Becoming a decent marksman with the gun requires practice. Becoming effective in a life or death encounter requires substantial mental preparation.

I hate to use this old cliche, but it's completely appropriate here: It's not like it is in the movies.

Your stress level will go off the charts. Fine motor skills will become difficult. Your hearing may become diminished. You have to know what you are going to do in advance.

You have practice this. Go over likely scenarios in you mind beforehand. If the perp does this, then I'll do that. If this happens, I'll do this. Trying to make decisions under the pressure of a life threatening situations is very difficult for law enforcement professionals. It can be even more difficult for people outside that profession.

Hesitation is what usually gets people killed. Bad guys know that they can usually call a homeowners bluff. Just like in 11top's story above, that guy was betting on the normal guy's decency, that he wouldn't shoot an unarmed man out in the open. And he was right. I'm very glad it turned out like it did, with no one getting hurt. But bad guys are willing to take the kind of risks we aren't, and often act quickly without thinking of any moral consequence. It's our deliberation, sometimes even weighing the prospective liability of our actions in the moment, which gives the bad guy enough time to make his move on us.

We don't often think of it this way, but the bad guys have two huge advantages over regular folks in this area. First, they don't have a moral limitation on what they are willing to do to get away from a job cleanly. If you show up, you are simply in their way. They have to get past you to avoid jail, and that choice is a no-brainer for them.

Second, they have already mentally prepared for the encounter. They planned the heist, and they have already thought of what they'll do if they encounter someone. See point #1 above to see if they'll hesitate to take you out.

[G.I.G.]

The reality is, if you want to use a gun for personal protection, you need to be very practiced in its use. Becoming a decent marksman with the gun requires practice. Becoming effective in a life or death encounter requires substantial mental preparation.....

....You have practice this. Go over likely scenarios in you mind beforehand. If the perp does this, then I'll do that. If this happens, I'll do this. Trying to make decisions under the pressure of a life threatening situations is very difficult for law enforcement professionals. It can be even more difficult for people outside that profession.

I couldn't agree more. Knowing not only how to use your gun safely and effectively but also when and what if, is very important. Like I mentioned when it came to what caliber to choose when looking at handguns, being able to shoot accurately is much more important than the caliber you choose, especially in a stressful situation like you mentioned.

And even if someone is in your house, the best thing to do is get your family together, have someone call 911, and lock yourself in a bedroom. If the perp comes close you should yell at them telling them that you are armed and will shoot if they come through the door. I actually saw a good DVD produced by the NRA addressing home defense and what to do in that situation. Again, knowledge is power and the more training you get on the subject, the better prepared you will be if something like that ever happens to you.

[Moltisanti]

i think i'd definitely adopt the lock everybody in a room approach, over here people have gotten in trouble for having weapons (bats, screwdrivers, knives etc) under the bed and then using them on an intruder. The lawyers have claimed that because the weapon was "in waiting" then the use of it was pre-meditated and therefore not an example of "reasonable force".

If i ended up in court i'd definitely go down the "the hammer just happened to be on the floor as he jumped on me" route. Here we can use "reasonable force" but if you beat the crap out of a guy you'll be in prison longer than him...

[Moltisanti]

LOL!!!


THAT IS A TRUE STORY!

11top that story is quality! I bet your heart was pounding when he challenged you though, wow, the first beer after all that was over must have tasted good!

[G.I.G.]

i think i'd definitely adopt the lock everybody in a room approach, over here people have gotten in trouble for having weapons (bats, screwdrivers, knives etc) under the bed and then using them on an intruder. The lawyers have claimed that because the weapon was "in waiting" then the use of it was pre-meditated and therefore not an example of "reasonable force".

If i ended up in court i'd definitely go down the "the hammer just happened to be on the floor as he jumped on me" route. Here we can use "reasonable force" but if you beat the crap out of a guy you'll be in prison longer than him...

Damn, that is a perfect example of a justice system turning the victim into the perpetrator. I wouldn't call defending yourself during a home invasion, regardless of what tools you have at your disposal, premeditated. Gotta love attorneys. :rolleyes: I'm not expecting a fire to break out at my house, but I have 4 fire extinguishers and they are all loaded. ;)

[RustyFalcon]

+10000 and a half.

You simply can't predict what your responses will be and you have to have literally worked it out in your head what to do and PRACTICE it somehow.

I've taken what are called 'force on force' classes before where you use Airsoft or Simunitions pistols. The rounds hurt but no one dies. And believe it or not the scenarios in a good FoF class will in fact build that same stress and aftereffects in your mind and body. On the plus side, if you have taken some training, you will probably see a payoff in that your training 'kicks in' under certain cases. The particular class I was involved in also discussed your actions in the aftermath of a shooting including appropriate and inappropriate interactions with the police.

I think in a previous post or possibly in the other thread I strongly recommended doing the headwork up front and making the determination where YOU draw the line with use of lethal force. Also helps to be aware of the laws in your locality, but the point is you are not a vigilante walking the streets. Firearms are tools to be used for dealing with situations, not for creating them.

Your stress level will go off the charts. Fine motor skills will become difficult. Your hearing may become diminished. You have to know what you are going to do in advance.

You have practice this. Go over likely scenarios in you mind beforehand. If the perp does this, then I'll do that. If this happens, I'll do this. Trying to make decisions under the pressure of a life threatening situations is very difficult for law enforcement professionals. It can be even more difficult for people outside that profession.

[Daniel]

My two cents.

One very VERY important consideration I haven't read mentioned is who, other than yourself and the intruder, is in your home. It looks real cool in the movies when some dudes are having a gunfight in a house and one guy ducks behind a doorway while the other blazes away at him with the bullets blocked by the wall. BULLSHIRTS! Bullets go right through the damn wall! Then they go right through the next wall too. Who is sleeping two or three rooms away? Think about it. Think real hard. A twelve gauge, even with 2&3/4" No.8 "bird" shot may as well be a slug at ten feet.

Your first choice for home defense should be a monitored alarm system, always armed, with a really loud siren and flashing lights. Scaring the pricks off is far more desirable than what comes next. Whatever gun and ammo combination you choose should be one you are comfortable with and one you train with often. Big magazines and coolio "M&P" style pistols are nice but it should only require one shot per perp from a reliable gun. Forget the "center of mass" target crap some firearms training classes will teach. Practice the head shot and don't shoot unless you can see who you're shooting at.

I am loath to post statements about particular guns I own or don't own because this is an internet forum. I will say that a Smith & Wesson model 57 revolver in .41 Mag with a four inch barrel is a very effective and controlable weapon. I highly recommend it. If you're woried about only having six shots before reloading, practice with a speed-loader.


I live in Colorado so no grizzlies here, just smaller black bears. And it is not the bears I am as concerned with, it's the mountain lions. While mountain lion attacks on humans are rare, they are very stealthy and capable of taking down an adult. Not to mention, I bring my dog with me camping. She is neither big nor tough, and could easily resemble a coyote (coyote = dinner to mountain lions) which could work to actually attrack a mountain lion to us. Sorry, I am totally off topic now.

Back on subject....I think 12 gauges are a good choice for home defense. However, when I was looking to buy a gun, I wanted one that I could use for multiple purposes in addition to home defense. I obtained my CCW permit so I put my Beretta in my back pack when I go hiking in the mountains, I can keep it in my center console of my car when I go 4-wheel'n or I know I will be going out to the middle of no where. Then when I'm camping in U.S. National Forrests (not National Parks), I can open carry. So for me, since I only own one gun, a semi-automatic handgun was the best fit for the multiple rolls I needed it to fill.

The Mountain Lion/Puma/Cougar is a deadly animal. It is also a fairly fragile animal. Typically, even a bad shot from a small caliber weapon can either kill it or send it into retreat. There are, of course, exceptions in the case of sick or desperate individuals.

i think i'd definitely adopt the lock everybody in a room approach, over here people have gotten in trouble for having weapons (bats, screwdrivers, knives etc) under the bed and then using them on an intruder. The lawyers have claimed that because the weapon was "in waiting" then the use of it was pre-meditated and therefore not an example of "reasonable force".

If i ended up in court i'd definitely go down the "the hammer just happened to be on the floor as he jumped on me" route. Here we can use "reasonable force" but if you beat the crap out of a guy you'll be in prison longer than him...

I read the news story earlier this year of the UK home invasion where the family managed to turn the tables on the attackers. The men then chased the felons out of the house but managed to capture and (justifiably, IMHO) beat the crap out of one of them. Last I heard, the home owner was looking at a long jail term and the thug was suing. I literally yelled, "WHAT THE F**K!" You can't blame that **** on lawyers, that is the fault of the people letting themselves become subjects rather than citizens and the type of government that mind set breeds.

[RustyFalcon]

My two cents.

One very VERY important consideration I haven't read mentioned is who, other than yourself and the intruder, is in your home. It looks real cool in the movies when some dudes are having a gunfight in a house and one guy ducks behind a doorway while the other blazes away at him with the bullets blocked by the wall. BULLSHIRTS! Bullets go right through the damn wall! Then they go right through the next wall too. Who is sleeping two or three rooms away? Think about it. Think real hard. A twelve gauge, even with 2&3/4" No.8 "bird" shot may as well be a slug at ten feet.

Totally agree! Fourth rule of firearms safety is to 'Know your target and what is behind it'. You start spraying birdshot, buckshot, or slugs in your home and there is a really good chance your hurt your family! Shot placement is critical regardless of the weapon. Even at that I really don't want to have to shoot a bad guy in my home - too much chance of my family getting hurt. But given the choice, I'll do it and have taken the responsibility to make sure I know my skill level and train to the skill level I need.

Your first choice for home defense should be a monitored alarm system, always armed, with a really loud siren and flashing lights. Scaring the pricks off is far more desirable than what comes next.


Sure but not everyone has that fancy alarm system so that the really nice man can call the house and reassure me that everything is "OK". Personal and family defense is a right and one that everyone needs to take seriously. Heck if my yappy little dogs scares them off I'll buy her a bone and call it a good night!

Whatever gun and ammo combination you choose should be one you are comfortable with and one you train with often. Big magazines and coolio "M&P" style pistols are nice but it should only require one shot per perp from a reliable gun. Forget the "center of mass" target crap some firearms training classes will teach. Practice the head shot and don't shoot unless you can see who you're shooting at.


Revolvers are great reliable guns - no argument. Very useful. But I don't think the statistics gathered over the years investigating shootings back up your 'one shot per perp' desire. Human physiology and human stress performance being what they are it's rare that shooting incidents on violent and possibly drug-influenced criminals are NOT ended with one great amazing shot. The stats bear out the need for multiple hits to end the problem. Caliber and shot placement as always, are the key, but amazing shooting under stress has been proven to be really really really difficult unless you train regularly to make those shots under stress. There are military units that train to that level intentionally so they can in fact make those shots. But as a non or semi-trained firearms owner ? Nope. Definitely not in the middle of the night, it's dark, you are groggy, vaguely awake and aware someone or multiple someones are in your home, and your adrenaline starts spiking thinking about your family asleep in their rooms. Good luck chief, you're a much better shot than I. Or maybe you've had better stress inoculation than I and can make that 'one shot per perp' under the conditions I laid out.

Maybe you've had that level of training, maybe not, but good luck getting consistent head shots when your body is stressing - in the dark - against someone who doesn't want to be shot. If you can do it consistently every time you are a better man than I am. Schools (and the police btw) teach center of mass shooting because of the awareness of the effects of adrenaline and stress on human performance to maximize the hits on the target and to increase the possibly of hitting all those . Fine motor skills disappear under stress - this is proven by research and also if you take or have taken advanced training such as 'Force On Force' training you will see this happen for yourself.

This diminishing of fine motor skills is part of the reason for my opinion is that an easy to manipulate higher-capacity reliable, modern, semi-automatic pistol in at least 9mm with ballistically useful ammunition is adequate for portable personal and family defense.

I will say that a Smith & Wesson model 57 revolver in .41 Mag with a four inch barrel is a very effective and controlable weapon. I highly recommend it. If you're woried about only having six shots before reloading, practice with a speed-loader.


Sounds like a great weapon with good stopping power. I personally recommend revolvers for someone who doesn't shoot a weapon much due to their simplicity and reliability. I do think that reloading from a moon clip or other revolver speed loader falls into that fine motor skills category and I think it would take a LOT of practice and a LOT of stress inocculation to be able to consistently, quickly, and without error, reload a revolver under the best of conditions.

This is a great discussion and hopefully useful to people reading it!

I'm going to close this with a recommendation...

If you own weapons, keep weapons in your home, carry weapons, plan to carry weapons, please get yourself adequate training. Please do not think for one minute that your weapon, whatever it is, is a magic talisman that can defeat the bad guys with no effort from you. If a bad guy gets to the point of attacking you, you can expect no mercy from him, he is not going to back down, he's already thought through what he is going to do to you and your family, and may in fact take your weapon and beat you with it if he has half a chance. There are many highly qualified schools out there across the country who can help you understand these issues much better than reading interesting posts on BaM about the subject. I'm not an instructor, I don't own a training school, but I have taken training from some very respected instructors in these areas and that was money well spent for my skill levels and my confidence levels.

[G.I.G.]

Forget the "center of mass" target crap some firearms training classes will teach. Practice the head shot and don't shoot unless you can see who you're shooting at.

Daniel, you bring up a lot of good points. However, I strongly disagree with you on the "'center of mass' target crap".

I served in the U.S. Coast Guard and qualified as a sharp shooter with the Beretta M9 pistol. I have many friends that work for various law enforcement agencies and we were all tought the same thing....shoot at center mass. Regardless if you have a law enforcement training or you just bought your first gun, in a stressful situation you are most likely to hit and bring down your target if you aim at center mass. While a head shot is still considered a "kill" shot, your likelihood of consistently hitting that target outside of a range environment is far less likely. Even U.S. military snipers are taught to aim at center mass. Keep in mind, if you are in anything other than an ideal situation (poor lighting, unfamiliar environment, elevated stress levels, etc.) your accuracy stands a strong chance of diminishing, regardless of your training and preparation. The only exception I could envision would be if your perpetrator popped his little noggin up over somethig or out from behind something and that was your only shot. However, if you have a rapidly advancing perpetrator, you may only get one or two shots off before they are on top of you. A couple of well-placed rounds at center mass (regardless of caliber) will stop most threats. Why roll the dice with a head shot?

[lookslikemeband]

I just wanted to say that I'm very surprised and impressed that this thread has lasted so long with such positive energy.

I hope the OP has received a lot of good information to consider.

[G.I.G.]

I just wanted to say that I'm very surprised and impressed that this thread has lasted so long with such positive energy.

I hope the OP has received a lot of good information to consider.

Agreed. We've drifted off topic a bit but there has been lots of good information posted.

IMO, what it really boils down to specifically regarding the OP's question of "what (gun) would you recommend for home defense?" My answer would be any gun that you are comfortable with, accurate with, know how and when to use, and can store safely without the kiddos gaining access to it.

[lookslikemeband]

My answer would be any gun that you are comfortable with, accurate with, know how and when to use, and can store safely without the kiddos gaining access to it.

Excellent answer my man. Agree with you 100&

And I'd think that even the drifting was done in a positive and mutually respectful tone.

[RustyFalcon]

Glad I could be a part of the dialog!


GROUP HUG!