Recording acoustic guitar

[irwcustom]

Just wondered if anybody had any tips for recording acoustic. I'm just listening to Mark Knopflers 'Ragpickers Dream' if you have it. The acoustic guitar that acompanies the voice on that is just superb - what a tone:dude:

i know - it's difficult to duplicate a tone, but in the ball park would do. I have 2 condensors - an AKG C100s and a Neumann M147 valve mic which I usually run through a TL audio VP 5051 valve processor. The placement of the mic makes a massive difference if at different points around the sound hole. also, I thought of mixing in a bit of another mike - probably the AKG placed near the fretboard for more of a 'fingers / string' sound if you know what i mean. Tryng a Gibson J185 on this.

Any tips on recording to get the tone described above or recording acoustic in general?

[johnreardon]

Sorry no tips, but thanks for reminding me that I had the CD. Just playing it now, reminds me of Auf Wiedersehen Pet. :dude:

[irwcustom]

Sorry no tips, but thanks for reminding me that I had the CD. Just playing it now, reminds me of Auf Wiedersehen Pet. :dude:That's one of me favs:dude:

Lots of highlights, but one that springs to mind is when wayne carved a love token for a new German GF of his - carved her name and his in a piece of wood. Barry comes in and looks at it scowls in his brummie dialect "That's a highly origonal love tokenthat is Wayne ... A PLANK!"
That and things like Oz making his way to the comunal breakfast table scratching his plums! .. oh and 'Mocksie' being allowed in to the hut after turning him away becuase they didn't fancy a scouser in the mix ..they noticed he had a dart board and called him back.
A brilliant series - alll of 'em.

I digress! Back to recording !

[GaryNattrass]

The best mic position I know is at 45 degrees pointing towards the end of the fretboard where it meets the sound hole, place the mic about 4 to 6 inches away and it should sound good.

BTW I think knopfler was using a very good martin and avalon mic amps to do ragpickers but you should be able to get a good sound micing with your neuman.

Have you heard his new album yet? Im not sure its as good but there again Ive only had it a couple of days so I need to get into it more.

[Quinny]

Avalon is great stuff indeed, but with a TLA VP and a M147 you've more than got the tools for a great pro job!! :dude:

Firstly, experimentation is the key!! There isn't really any substitute or better way to do it.... the best thing you can do is dedicate an entire day to different mic combinations and placement. The acoustic space you are recording in also will have a massive impact. I went absolutely nuts looking for 'the' acoustic tone I wanted. Seriously, this took me a couple of years of finding the right guitar.... then another year or so working on mics and placement, then I scrapped the mic and placement ideas in order to find the perfect recording environment... before once again going back to working on mic placement, which took only a few hours once I'd found the right recording space.

What Gary said is very true and kinda an 'industry standard' mic placement, somewhere around where the neck joins the body and facing in at an angle. This is often paired with another mic, sometimes right in front of the soundhole but further away than the first mic (anywhere between a foot or so and loads of feet!), or often the second mic can be placed near the fat end of the body and either angled to the guitar or pointed straight at it. Again, experimentation here will let you know what you want.

What eventually did it for me was 3 mics, my Guild and a certain room in a certain house in Cornwall. Two of the mics were RV10 mics from Red5 Audio, the other was a Neumann TLM103. For processing I used a TLA C1 and an ART Dual Mic Preamp. For my best acoustic tones I had the TLM103 about a foot away from the guitar in front of the 13th fret, angled slightly in. One of the RV10s hung over my right shoulder and pointing down at the guitar (to try and capture the perspective of one of my ears), I figured if it sounds good in my ears, then why not put a mic where my ear is! (It WORKS!!!). The 3rd mic sat about 15 feet away and picked up the whole room. The Neumann was panned left at around 10 o'clock, the RV10 at my ear around 2pm on the right, and the 3rd mic was right down the middle, but not so high in the mix. Just a teeny bit of reverb was added to the 3rd mic, the other two staying dry.

If you can, check out 2 songs by Kate Rusby called 'Some Tyrant' and 'Let The Cold Wind Blow'. Those two songs have out of this worldly gorgeous acoustic tone on. I had a chat with Kate's producer and he got this from an Avalon, a M149, an AKG (forget which one, maybe a C414) and, most importantly, a rather gorgeous custom built Peter Barton acoustic. (check Peter out HERE (http://www.peterbartonguitars.co.uk/) ).

Sorry for the ramble, doesn't really help much in your quest for a specific tone! :D But I do come over all excited when acoustic recording is mentioned. Is there a finer way to spend a day?? With my electrics I know any one of my guitars into any one of my amps will sound good (dodgy playing aside!) but with my acoustic I get so pedantic... since finding the winning combo described above, I've not so much as looked at another acoustic or recording setup. beautiful!!

Man, I'll shut up now!!! :D Good luck, be sure to keep us posted.

Q.

[LSchefman]

Here's how I get a good acoustic guitar tone:

1. Use a good acoustic guitar.

2. Know how to get good tone out of it when you play.

3. Find a decent mic - doesn't have to be pricy, I like a small diaphragm condenser on acoustic guitar

4. Put on a pair of headphones and move the guitar and mic around until you find the sweet spot

5. Hit "Record". Play well.

[irwcustom]

Have you heard his new album yet? Im not sure its as good but there again Ive only had it a couple of days so I need to get into it more.
Thanks for your input Gary. Just ordered the album today - £9.99 with DVD. I hope it is as good .. I had 'Rag pickers' for a while and liked it .. now I love it. It seems evrything Knopfler has recorded always sounds good - from a tone / sound point of view and also great songs of course.

Got me a good Martin on the way, but I'm sure there are lots of other great acoustics that would do the job just as good. I'm hoping the Martin will be more of a pickers guitar than the gibbo. An even string response with seperation between the strings rather than a good strummer.

[irwcustom]

Firstly, experimentation is the key!! There isn't really any substitute or better way to do it.... the best thing you can do is dedicate an entire day to different mic combinations and placement. The acoustic space you are recording in also will have a massive impact. I went absolutely nuts looking for 'the' acoustic tone I wanted. Seriously, this took me a couple of years of finding the right guitar.... then another year or so working on mics and placement, then I scrapped the mic and placement ideas in order to find the perfect recording environment... before once again going back to working on mic placement, which took only a few hours once I'd found the right recording space.
Q.
BRILLIANT post Q:dude: It's great to hear somebody else is as obsessed as me! I also went a couple of years till I found a nice guitar - though what I wanted then might be a different beast from now. I think I need a strummer and a picker which I hope I'm gonna get. I loved the bas end of the Gibson though have come to realise that this is a bit at the expense of the seperation I mentioned before. The J185 seemed right - I liked early J200's, but tone wise, perhaps they were a bit too boomy. The smaller bodied J185 seemed right and is a cracker for sure. I got the Neumann without even hearing it - seriously! I got a killer deal on that and the TLA and I talked the guy into a shockmount which I'm sure is suppoosed to be extra. 3 mics?!!! I've gotta try that! and your right ......it sounds good to my ears at that point at which the sound waves are vibrating my ear drum ... so why not?!!!

I nearly just took a job in St. Austell ... is that the place to go for good acoustic tone??!!! What I mean really is about the room. Do you used any sound proofing or choose a room without curtains / furniture etc that seriously affect the acoustics of the room?

I have heard a lot of good things about the TLM103.

One thing I used to do - though it isn't what I'm after at the mo, is to use a PZM from tandys and use it at about 3 foot coupled with either the Piezo on my Ovation or a mic placed at a suitable point. I got shot of the Ovation because although it did sound pretty good and 'woody' ... when you recorded it, you could tell it wasn't a straight acoustic - slightly plastic. It had a superb neck though -and great for live through an amp - that's what they're made for.

Hmmm never thought of having some 'wet and some dry' .. I'll try that - thanks!

[irwcustom]

Here's how I get a good acoustic guitar tone:


3. Find a decent mic - doesn't have to be pricy, I like a small diaphragm condenser on acoustic guitar


Thanks for the reply L.

What does the smaller diapham give you in terms of tone ?

[johnnyguitar]

Back in the studio days..we would take a very good mic and place it up by our ear..that way if it sounded sweet to your ear..it recorded sweet..

[MickYoumans]

The best combo I've run across for recording an acoustic was using three mikes, two mikes close to the guitar and one overhead for room ambience. One of the close mikes I put in front of the fingerboard aimed towared the sound hole and the other was about in line with the strap pin on the butt of the guitar and aimed toward the sound hole. The third mike was just above head level and about 4-5 feet in front of the guitar. As many have already said in their posts, you still need to play around with the placement and volume balance between the mike to find the sweetest spots. Hope this may help a little. :)

[Quinny]

BRILLIANT post Q:dude: It's great to hear somebody else is as obsessed as me! I also went a couple of years till I found a nice guitar - though what I wanted then might be a different beast from now. I think I need a strummer and a picker which I hope I'm gonna get. I loved the bas end of the Gibson though have come to realise that this is a bit at the expense of the seperation I mentioned before. The J185 seemed right - I liked early J200's, but tone wise, perhaps they were a bit too boomy. The smaller bodied J185 seemed right and is a cracker for sure. I got the Neumann without even hearing it - seriously! I got a killer deal on that and the TLA and I talked the guy into a shockmount which I'm sure is suppoosed to be extra. 3 mics?!!! I've gotta try that! and your right ......it sounds good to my ears at that point at which the sound waves are vibrating my ear drum ... so why not?!!!

I nearly just took a job in St. Austell ... is that the place to go for good acoustic tone??!!! What I mean really is about the room. Do you used any sound proofing or choose a room without curtains / furniture etc that seriously affect the acoustics of the room?

I have heard a lot of good things about the TLM103.

One thing I used to do - though it isn't what I'm after at the mo, is to use a PZM from tandys and use it at about 3 foot coupled with either the Piezo on my Ovation or a mic placed at a suitable point. I got shot of the Ovation because although it did sound pretty good and 'woody' ... when you recorded it, you could tell it wasn't a straight acoustic - slightly plastic. It had a superb neck though -and great for live through an amp - that's what they're made for.

Hmmm never thought of having some 'wet and some dry' .. I'll try that - thanks!


Aaah, St. Austell... made my first ever studio recording there! The 'magic' place I found is in our cottage down at Land's End. The house itself is made from very thick stone walls and one particular room has a good thick carpet, heavy curtains and a great view of the sea! It's a really acoustically dead space, just what I like, but somehow also seems to manage to put some warmth into an acoustic. Come down some day, we'll jam open air by the sea, sink a Guinness or two and do some recording! :dude:

Q.

[irwcustom]

Might just take you up on that -ta! Keep an eye peeled for my EJ acoustic post ..new aquisition. I don't seem to have the time to have done the pics yet tho'.

[LSchefman]

>>Thanks for the reply L.

What does the smaller diapham give you in terms of tone ?<<

Just my two cents, I find that a good small D mic sometimes gives more of a "this is how the guitar really sounds" picture of the instrument, where sometimes a large D mic will sound a little too low endy.

Of course, like anything else...depends on what you're going for, and how you aim it.

[LSchefman]

I thought I'd explain why the small diaphragm condenser is my choice for acoustic guitar less subjectively.

Large diaphragm mics are great for vocals and certain instruments, but I like a lot of high end detail in an acoustic guitar or piano recording. Many mic experts will tell you that any large diaphragm mic represents a trade-off because the capsule's size isn't ideal for high frequency sound due to the wavelengths of high frequencies.

I believe this is why virtually all mics used for test measurement have very small diaphragms. The Earthworks mics are also examples of a very small diaphragms being used to good effect.

This is also why orchestras are traditionally recorded with paired small diaphragm condensers.

[irwcustom]

Makes total sense to me L. Thanks. Just brought to mind something I read once about when The Beatles were recording I think it was Rain or Paperback writer ..that era anyway ..and they wanted a bass sound that was a lot more prominent - like they heard on a lot of American records. So at the time, with the equipment that was available then, they - the engineer, chose to use a speaker wired up with reverse polarity and use this as a very large diaphram mic in effect. EMI were worried about the needle jumping out of the groove at the time.

Just the opposite, but makes you think about the effect of large v small diaphram mics.