Trem Problem on Pull Up

[zerolight]

When I dive on my Trem in my CU24 it comes back into perfect tune, more or less. But when I pull up on the trem it always comes back sharp. I have to dive again to get back to pitch. What gives? If it were a sticky nut it would affect the diving rather than the pull up. Any ideas?

Guitar is new, setup by Jack Gretz, and the trem angle seems to be correct. The knife edges seem to be in the slots. The trem is level. The nut is lubricated. I'm at a loss.


Thanks.

Graham.

[Taller]

If it were a sticky nut it would affect the diving rather than the pull up.

Not necessarily. I'm not saying it is the nut, but it certainly could be.

[zerolight]

Not necessarily. I'm not saying it is the nut, but it certainly could be.I don't see how. If you pull up on the trem it pulls the strings through the nut towards the bridge. If they got stuck in the nut when you released the trem then that would cause there to be too much string between the nut and the bridge, causing the guitar to drop in pitch. My problem is that it's going up in pitch.

You have a problem with the nut if the strings return sharp when you dive, or return flat when you pull up on the trem. Something else is amiss in this instance.

I'll try oiling the screws in the trem as the PRS site suggests that.

[zerolight]

OK, so last night I was tinkering some more and decided to try stretching the strings. Well, they were stretched already it turns out, so my additional stretching just broke them. Well 3 of them. :o

So I pulled it apart, took the springs off the trem and laid it flat on the body to ensure the screws were all at the same height, they almost were (so I tweaked em). I pulled the pups whilst I was at it and added some half springs to extend the pup springs (as the screws were rattling when chords were struck).

When I put it all back together (and tweaked the trem springs to suit the guage 9 ernie balls) the annoying rattle at the pups was gone, and more pleasingly, the guitar seems to stay in tune when I pull and dive the trem. And, as described in the PRS site, the trem pulls the low E to F sharp, no more, no less, when pulled all the way up.

I also raised the action some more, so it's about the same height as that on my McRosie, and way higher than Jack set it. The result? Better sustain, better tone, easier to play, and no rattling fret buzz.

Yay. :dude:

[Valtiel]

I used to have tuning problems with my trem as well. You can have the problem of the strings going sharp as well as flat due to binding in the nut. If you think about it, when the trem is returning to pitch after you have pulled back, the string can get caught in the slot a little bit BEFORE it returns to its original pitch. This would cause the string to go sharp.

[zerolight]

If you think about it, when the trem is returning to pitch after you have pulled back, the string can get caught in the slot a little bit BEFORE it returns to its original pitch. This would cause the string to go sharp.No, that would mean that the string between the nut and the bridge would be slightly longer than it should be, so it would go flat. :)

[Valtiel]

I think I see what you mean. I know that strings returning sharp is an issue associated with non locking trems. So even if what I said was backwards (which it very well might be) then the string binding in the nut by traveling too far would cause the string to go sharp. Of course, the latter is more common but the former can still happen from time to time.

[zerolight]

If you think about it, if you dive the trem, the strings relax in tension and will naturally move through the nut towards the tuning pegs. If they bind in the nut when the trem returns to pitch then not enough string returns back through the nut so the string tension increases. But if you do the opposite, pulling up on the trem then you pull the strings through the nut towards the bridge, and if they bind in the nut when you release the trem then you'll have a little too much string between bridge and nut, reducing the tension. So you can never have the tuning going sharp as a result of nut/string binding on pull up, and you can never have the tuning going flat as a result of nut/string binding after diving a trem. Pull up can only result in flat, and diving can only result in sharp. Unless you have a problem elsewhere that is unrelated to binding at the nut. Which means something going on at the bridge. Perhaps strings binding in the saddles, or slightly misaligned or poorly lubricated knife edges/screw slots, or the trem angle incorrectly set.

[_pete_]

This sounds wierd but it really works. I found this posted here somewhere and tried it out.

Tune the guitar.
Dive the bar, then pull the bar up.
If the strings are sharp, tune down to the correct pitch. Don't tune flat and then tune it up to pitch.

I've always tuned up to pitch to make sure there's no slack but I tried this and it works. My CE24 stays in tune as good as my Floyded Strats now.

[zerolight]

Using the steps I mentioned a few posts up at getting the trem angle correct, as per PRS as opposed to the mis-conception of flat relative to between the pups sorted all my trem tuning issues.

[Dream_sequancer]

I am confused. Is there a picture of which part of the guitar I should be aligning the trem with, as mine does not raise the high E up to an F sharp, infact, it is probably closer to an F....

[Valtiel]

Using the steps I mentioned a few posts up at getting the trem angle correct, as per PRS as opposed to the mis-conception of flat relative to between the pups sorted all my trem tuning issues.So when you say as per PRS you mean having the angle setup so pulling back will reach an F# on the E strings?

[Valtiel]

So when you say as per PRS you mean having the angle setup so pulling back will reach an F# on the E strings?Hey this guy has a great question!

[Valtiel]

bump for question.

[zerolight]

Only low E

[Valtiel]

The main thing I was wondering was it seems some people say to have the trem level with the body between the pickups, others say for it to to be slightly tilted back so its level with the sloping curve of the top.

EDIT: Also, if the trem can pull the low E up to an F#, it should do the same to the high E as well shouldnt it?

Yet Another EDIT: So I just spoke to Sean at PRS, according to him the tremolo should float parallel to the groung if the guitar were laying on said ground.

[mykewright]

The main thing I was wondering was it seems some people say to have the trem level with the body between the pickups, others say for it to to be slightly tilted back so its level with the sloping curve of the top.

EDIT: Also, if the trem can pull the low E up to an F#, it should do the same to the high E as well shouldnt it?

Yet Another EDIT: So I just spoke to Sean at PRS, according to him the tremolo should float parallel to the groung if the guitar were laying on said ground.Unfortunately not. The different gauge of wire, composition of wound and plain strings and different tensions mean that the pitch of each string will change at a different rate for a given amount of movement at the bridge. If it were consistent across all strings, we'd be able to bend whole chords and keep them in tune. The Steinberger TransTrem managed to do this by having adjustable cams for each string that allowed you to fine tune the pitch raised or lowered, per string.

[Valtiel]

Ahh that makes sense, thanks!

[Supasso]

Using the steps I mentioned a few posts up at getting the trem angle correct, as per PRS as opposed to the mis-conception of flat relative to between the pups sorted all my trem tuning issues.+1

I just don't understand how could anyone adjust the trem like that. I tried that and it just felt really wrong. The arm was so low that it was not even close to usable. I think it was actually from the PRS DVD - John Ingram himself. (I haven't double checked yet. I could be wrong) Why he said that, I didn't know, but as far as I know, no PRS guitars come from the factory set up like that.

[Perry]

Mine is more or less parallel with the body directly underneath it. When I pull up, bottom E correctly goes to F#. However, like you I found the tremelo (I hate that misnomer - let's stick to 'whammy')....whammy arm too close to the strings/body. A quick bending of the arm in the vice, though, and it is now perfect.:)

[Valtiel]

+1

I just don't understand how could anyone adjust the trem like that. I tried that and it just felt really wrong. The arm was so low that it was not even close to usable. I think it was actually from the PRS DVD - John Ingram himself. (I haven't double checked yet. I could be wrong) Why he said that, I didn't know, but as far as I know, no PRS guitars come from the factory set up like that.

I dunno, according to Sean at PRS the trem is supposed to be parallel to the body between the pickups, or parallel to the ground if you were to lay the guitar on the floor.

[zerolight]

Mine is more or less parallel with the body directly underneath it. When I pull up, bottom E correctly goes to F#. However, like you I found the tremelo (I hate that misnomer - let's stick to 'whammy')....whammy arm too close to the strings/body. A quick bending of the arm in the vice, though, and it is now perfect.:)

Yup, that's the way mine is... though I never bent the trem. Initially the action felt stiff, but that's only because it's lower with the trem tipped back a little. Simple solution is to raise the action a tad and it feels less stiff and much better.

... I dug this up cause it kinda answers another recent thread.

[Valtiel]

I think I posted this in another thread as well. Ive spoken to both Orkie and Sean at PRS about this, the trem is supposed to be parallel to the strings, NOT parallel to the body underneath the trem. This will give the illusion that the trem is cocked forward slightly. If you have set your trem up this way and it does not pull back to F#, the trem is set too low.

[Supasso]

I began to think that there is not one correct way to set up the angle of the bridge. Orkie indeed recommends to set it parallel to the strings (which, by the way, will pull the low E up way sharper than F#), but somehow the stock PRSi I've seen so far have the trem setup parallel to the body beneath it.

Anyways, I don't think the angle is crucial for the trem's performance. It's probably something that you can adjust to your liking. The most important thing is that it floats a bit and the screws are perfectly lined up.

[Valtiel]

I began to think that there is not one correct way to set up the angle of the bridge. Orkie indeed recommends to set it parallel to the strings (which, by the way, will pull the low E up way sharper than F#), but somehow the stock PRSi I've seen so far have the trem setup parallel to the body beneath it.

Anyways, I don't think the angle is crucial for the trem's performance. It's probably something that you can adjust to your liking. The most important thing is that it floats a bit and the screws are perfectly lined up.

True, but it will have an affect on the string tension which can worsen string breakage problems to those that have them. If the tremolo is setup parallel to the strings and it is pulling sharper than F#, then your trem is just set too high.

[Supasso]

Like I said, there is not one correct way to set it up (although there are several wrong ways). My trem works perfectly fine, and I like it way better than the other way (I tried both). The trem is designed to be rocking back and forth anyway. I'd say it does not matter much.

[Supasso]

Yet Another EDIT: So I just spoke to Sean at PRS, according to him the tremolo should float parallel to the groung if the guitar were laying on said ground.
Now that's contradictory because the strings are not parallel to the ground if the guitar were laying flat. I know that neck pitch varies from model to model, and to a lesser extent, from guitar to guitar, but there should be some neck pitch. It's never parallel to the back of the body.

Since the top carve and neck pitch can vary, there's one more indication that the trem angle should be verily adjusted accordingly to each guitar too.

[Valtiel]

Now that's contradictory because the strings are not parallel to the ground if the guitar were laying flat. I know that neck pitch varies from model to model, and to a lesser extent, from guitar to guitar, but there should be some neck pitch. It's never parallel to the back of the body.

Since the top carve and neck pitch can vary, there's one more indication that the trem angle should be verily adjusted accordingly to each guitar too.

Well yea of course they arent perfectly parallel, I was just using that as an easy to understand visual example. Im just relaying information, if you want to debate about it, call Orkie.

[Big Mike]

Or just use what works for you, and don't bicker about it.

I always set it parallel to the top, as that's how Orkie did it in the PRS Vid. ;)

Edit: That's also how my 86 came back from John after the refret.

[Valtiel]

Or just use what works for you, and don't bicker about it.

I always set it parallel to the top, as that's how Orkie did it in the PRS Vid. ;)

Edit: That's also how my 86 came back from John after the refret.

Sorry bout' that, I just spent a lot of time adjusting the trem that was based on misinformation. Read: i'm bitter. :p

[zerolight]

Certainly the PRS website suggests it should be parallel to the body under it based on the photo, the description, and the pitch it should pull up to. Additionally, and this is the important bit, when it's parallel to the body under it, it is also exactly perpendicular to the screws. If it's parallel to between the pups, then it's center point is angled up away from perpendicular to the screws - so you've already moved past the natural equilibrium point, which would seem to be a bad thing if you want stability.

To check the screw heights I destrung the guitar, dropped the trem flat with the body under it, then made sure each and every screw (by sight) was the same height. Then restrung and setup my trem as discussed and it's been stable ever since. I can pull the navarro off the wall in tune every time, but for whatever reason - I'm betting the tuners - the McRosie has almost always drifted.

[Valtiel]

Certainly the PRS website suggests it should be parallel to the body under it based on the photo, the description, and the pitch it should pull up to. Additionally, and this is the important bit, when it's parallel to the body under it, it is also exactly perpendicular to the screws. If it's parallel to between the pups, then it's center point is angled up away from perpendicular to the screws - so you've already moved past the natural equilibrium point, which would seem to be a bad thing if you want stability.

To check the screw heights I destrung the guitar, dropped the trem flat with the body under it, then made sure each and every screw (by sight) was the same height. Then restrung and setup my trem as discussed and it's been stable ever since. I can pull the navarro off the wall in tune every time, but for whatever reason - I'm betting the tuners - the McRosie has almost always drifted.

This part dosent seem right to me. The screws extend straight out of the body, not at an angle. Meaning the trem would need to be parallel to strings to be perpendicular to the screws. Look, I talked extensively with John Ingram about this, if there is anyone in the world that would know how to properly set up a PRS tremolo, its him. And he insists that the trem should be parallel to the the strings.

[Supasso]

It's tough to be contradicting with Orkie. I better shut up now.

[Valtiel]

It's tough to be contradicting with Orkie. I better shut up now.

Im not sure if that was meant to be sarcasm or not. If it was, then im sorry its just frustrating when we have the answer from one of the top authorities on PRS guitar setups and people keep insisting otherwise.

If it wasnt sarcasm, then no worries! :)

[Supasso]

That's cool.

[Big Mike]

I think you're probably both right.

Ad bugging John about this stuff is a little much. He doesn't work for PRS anymore, and should be paid for his time.

I go by the DVD. Which my tech said worked perfectly. Good enough for me.

[zerolight]

This part dosent seem right to me. The screws extend straight out of the body, not at an angle. Meaning the trem would need to be parallel to strings to be perpendicular to the screws. Look, I talked extensively with John Ingram about this, if there is anyone in the world that would know how to properly set up a PRS tremolo, its him. And he insists that the trem should be parallel to the the strings.

Mine come straight out the body, perpendicular to the body at the trem. To be parallel to the strings or parallel to the body between the pups would mean it'd have to be at an angle to where it meets the body.

ps. when the bottom of the trem is parallel to the body, the top of the trem is more or less parallel to the strings - it is angled.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/191/467064585_70cd0f9771.jpg

Anyway, I'll say no more. Was only trying to help. After setting it up like this, as per the PRS website (http://www.prsguitars.com/csc/bridges.html), my guitar has stayed in tune flawlessly. YMMV.