'G' string dead at the octave (PRS SAS)

[Czar Of Zonk]

Hi, I have a PRS Swamp Ash (trem);

As long as I can remember, the 'G' string at the octave is dead; Sustain just aint happenin'; I've had all the "who's who" at PRS work on it, including Mr. Paul; Improved, replaced springs in the Trem, et al; Now, interestingly, if I use the trem to lower the pitch, so to speak, I get pure free sustain; Couple questions:

A). Replace the trem (and, why didn't someone at PRS do that?)?

B). Where can I find a good set up guy in the MD (eastern shore, annapolis/bowie) area?

Thanks, Craig

[rosewoodsteel]

Hi, I have a PRS Swamp Ash (trem);

As long as I can remember, the 'G' string at the octave is dead; Sustain just aint happenin'; I've had all the "who's who" at PRS work on it, including Mr. Paul; Improved, replaced springs in the Trem, et al; Now, interestingly, if I use the trem to lower the pitch, so to speak, I get pure free sustain; Couple questions:

A). Replace the trem (and, why didn't someone at PRS do that?)?

B). Where can I find a good set up guy in the MD (eastern shore, annapolis/bowie) area?
Thanks, CraigCraig,
See John Ingram.
He is not a just good set up guy in Annapolis.
He is the best in the country for PRS's (imo).
He can be reached at the following:
410.757.2566
410.533.2489
john@orkiespoil.com
His web site is www.orkiespoil.com (http://www.orkiespoil.com).

If you don't know who Orkie/John Ingram is, check out his name in the index of the PRS book. :)

[Bill McDowell]

hmmm - I guess everyone is entitled to his opinion, so here's mine (and I'm thinking through it).

As you lower pitch, the string is hitting the saddle in a different place - so maybe the saddle is bad. I'd replace the saddles with Mann saddles first.

Also as you lower pitch, you have less tension on the neck - are you playing 9s? If so leave them there, if not put 9s on it (since this guitar was designed to have 9s on it). Since its been going on a while it can't be the particular pack of strings is bad - do you use D'Addario? If not try some (all the ne strings with this silly coatings won't help a thing).

In addition, the relief of the neck plays a big part in sustain - I'd make sure its at least .008 (.010 is PRS spec).

John Ingram - an ex PRS employee might be able to help you (he's in your general area I think).

[ChrisCst22]

John Ingram - an ex PRS employee might be able to help you (he's in your general area I think). ex PRS employee?? When did he leave?

(Dont mean to change the subject)

[aleclee]

Sounds like a dead spot to me. The trem sustain thing would then be explained by getting the string off the non-resonating frequency.

Dead spots at the 12th fret on the G string are not uncommon on 24 fret PRSi but this would be the first I've heard of one on a 22. If it is a dead spot, you're somewhat SOL from a "repair" standpoint. Some folks have been able to improve things a bit through various tweaks but the dead note never sings quite like the others.

[Czar Of Zonk]

Hi, thanks for the replies... I have to wonder about the saddles, but I'll consider the SOL advisement; Anyway, for a while now, the one thing that I've been thinking, in terms of the cup-half-full mentality, is that, since it's at the octave, I can always pluck the harmonic and get eons of sustain that way as it is; And, since I do get sustain by lowering the pitch a la the trem, that's still a cool effect, as long as it can be done without distracting the rest of the band musicians' product;

This does bring up one question I have -- what if I had a stop tail? Is it really something to do with the bridge? Or, is it really the neck? I must have a trem because I'm left handed playing a right hander's guitar (no, I'm not switching; I've played this way for 30 years; I just like having the trem for stability);

Thanks again

[aleclee]

Is it really something to do with the bridge? Or, is it really the neck? Dead spots are a function of the entire guitar's resonant nodes. It's the bridge AND the neck AND the body . . .

[rosewoodsteel]

....John Ingram - an ex PRS employee might be able to help you (he's in your general area I think)....Bill,
Referring to John Ingram as an ex PRS employee is like saying that Abe Lincoln was once a Government worker :)

[Bill McDowell]

ex PRS employee?? When did he leave?

(Dont mean to change the subject)

at least a year ago I think

[ChrisCst22]

Bill,
Referring to John Ingram as an ex PRS employee is like saying that Abe Lincoln was once a Government worker :) Thats exactly why I was so surprised. So anyone know why?? Maybe he just decided to retire. Which would be fine. I hope it was not a problem or anything and he had to switch jobs.

Imagine if he went to work for Gibson! Whew!

John was one of those few people who, if he did not exist, neither would PRS guitars as we know it. (If at all!!)

[aleclee]

Thats exactly why I was so surprised. So anyone know why?? Those who know why are probably not in a position to discuss it. John was pretty adamant about not publically discussing details of his departure from PRS.

[TheArchitect]

Sounds like a dead spot to me. The trem sustain thing would then be explained by getting the string off the non-resonating frequency.

Dead spots at the 12th fret on the G string are not uncommon on 24 fret PRSi but this would be the first I've heard of one on a 22. If it is a dead spot, you're somewhat SOL from a "repair" standpoint. Some folks have been able to improve things a bit through various tweaks but the dead note never sings quite like the others.I was thinking the same thing. Ifthis is the case G's at other spots on the neck are probably experiencing the same thing

[Bruce O'Donnell]

I was thinking the same thing. Ifthis is the case G's at other spots on the neck are probably experiencing the same thingIt's not a function of the note, it's a function a specific location on the neck filtering one or more harmonics of the note. These points are called nodes, and when they fall exactly at a fret and are a harmonic of the note being fretted, the string vibratory mode loses some of it's harmonic content, which is why the note sounds 'dead'. The problem spots on all guitars are the G and B strings between the 12th-14th fret. 24 fret guitars are more susceptible to it - in fact PRS changed the heel length on 24 fret guitars in 1995 to address this problem - but 22 fret guitars can also encounter it on occasion. The more slop you have in production tolerances, the more common it is. This is why you rarely hear about it in PRS 22 fret guitars, but it's a recurring problem in Fenders. Groove Tubes markets a product call the Fat Finger, which is nothing more than a weight you clamp on to the headstock of the guitar, which gives the neck more mass. The location of nodes along the neck are a function of the mass and stiffness properties of the neck, and since you really can't change the stiffness of wood except by compressing it, changing the mass is about the only option.

If this is a new guitar, I'm shocked PRS hasn't offered to replace the neck. That's the only way to fix it. They may have tried that at the shop, which means the problem is related to the overall guitar response and isn't fixable with a neck swap.

[Czar Of Zonk]

Hi, I found a brass/gold groove tubes fat finger on eBay and ordered it; (a la musician's friend / american musical / zzSounds, they are only offering the chrome one); On harmony central, the reviews of the groove tubes fat finger are very good; It's reasonably priced and it doesn't appear that it would harm the head stock in any way, so I'm all for it;

As for PRS, ... sigh ... Lesson learned - never purchase a guitar without playing it first (was not an option for my swamp ash); My next guitar will be a variax, and I won't be ordering it, let's put it that way;

And, no, the who's who never bothered to try a neck swap, which would not be an option under the circumstances, I guess; But, if the groove tubes fat finger works magic as the reviews suggest, I'll be a happy camper;

I'll keep you posted in a few days / week, and let you all know how the groove tubes fat finger works out; Much appeciative of the tip!; Thank you very much;

[ChrisCst22]

Don't know if this should transform into a new thread, but when it comes to the Fat Finger, my personal assesment is thumbs down.

Ever heard Paul's explanation behind the Phase II's tuners?? I can't quote him word for word, but basically Paul saw the neck as a tuning fork. You hit it, and its a free vibrating mass. Now take a piece of rubber or whatever, any amount of weight, and attach it to the end of the tuning fork. All of a sudden the vibration is greatly hampered because the excess weight is absorbing the vibration.

This is why the Phase II's are "light weight" tuners. Paul wanted to make them as light as possible to let the neck freely ring. I believe it's also the theory behind the thinner headstocks on McCarty's.

I still need to learn some proper forum etiqutte so let me know if I should've started a new thread on this or something. More importantly I want others thoughts on these.

P.S-In the 2 1/2 years selling guitar accessories, I never once sold a Fat Finger, nor could I sell them at store cost just to get rid of em.

[Jmilliondead]

without being the bringer of bad news, im not sure fat fingers will solve the problem, plus would alter the balance of the guitar too so may become top heavy. don't want to dive into detail but after reading all this thread, it sounds like a neck replacement is definately needed..

[Bruce O'Donnell]

Don't know if this should transform into a new thread, but when it comes to the Fat Finger, my personal assesment is thumbs down.

Ever heard Paul's explanation behind the Phase II's tuners?? I can't quote him word for word, but basically Paul saw the neck as a tuning fork. You hit it, and its a free vibrating mass. Now take a piece of rubber or whatever, any amount of weight, and attach it to the end of the tuning fork. All of a sudden the vibration is greatly hampered because the excess weight is absorbing the vibration.From a tone standpoint you are correct, but Craig's issue is a dead spot. I'm not a fan of Fat Fingers either, but GT's rationale for selling them (I forget who invented it) is based on sound engineering and physics and may help Craig's node problem. It might not, only way he'll know is to try it. You don't have to shift the node far, which is why the Fat Finger gets rave reviews on (mostly) Fender guitars.

Paul's explanation has everything to do with tone, doesn't apply to nodes at all. Gibson has had huge honking headstocks with large Grover tuners for years, nodes are not a problem on Lesters, mostly due to the shorter scale length. Paul was trying to get Les Paul tones out of the Custom 22, but didn't want a 10 lb guitar. With a lighter mass body, such as the McCarty when compared to the Les Paul, you have to make the neck/body as stiff as possible in order to get the low-end that Lesters have. By reducing the mass of the headstock and beefing up the neck heel, the guitar is stiffer and more of the lower frequency content is retained. Ned Steinberger figured this out in the early 80's - his headless composite neck was required in order for the very low mass composite bodies he used to sound like guitars and not ukeleles. The lighter the mass of the guitar, the more rigid it has to be to retain the low-frequency response.

[ChrisCst22]

Hmm...Interesting. I guess I'm a little foggy on what you mean by nodes. I know of harmonic nodes. Like where they will ring best. What are the nodes your speaking of?

[Bruce O'Donnell]

Hmm...Interesting. I guess I'm a little foggy on what you mean by nodes. I know of harmonic nodes. Like where they will ring best. What are the nodes your speaking of?Same thing, but it's the nodes in the neck as a result of the neck vibration. When you pull natural harmonics off the string, you are tapping the string at one of it's nodes to knock down one of the fundamental frequencies. The points where there is no motion of the string are called nodes. At the 12th fret you are knocking down the 1st mode (the string moving like a jump rope), the 3rd mode, the 5th mode, etc. Check this reference out for a good background on harmonics with lots of nice pictures:

http://www.harmony-central.com/Guitar/harmonics.html

The pics of the string vibration are the harmonic modes, and there are an infinite number of them (theoretically). The string continues to ring because the other modes are not damped. That's what gives harmonics that pleasing, ringing tone. On the other hand, artificial harmonics are designed to knock down most of the fundamental modes and dampen all but the tone you are after, which is why they are higher pitched and like to squeal.

These same nodes occur all over the neck, and when one occurs directly under a fret it filters alot of the harmonic content of the note. That's what a dead spot is.

[Czar Of Zonk]

Hi, All I know is that I am really disappointed in this guitar, and I am absolutely furious at PRS for letting this guitar get out the door with an anomaly so easy to detect; Even if the Groove Tubes Fat Finger works, I will still be furious at PRS; ... sigh ... I have been designing and writing software day in and day out for 26 years straight and I would never knowingly let a buggy product leave my hands; ... deep breath ...

[AaeCee]

Not that it'll make you feel better about your situation, but I've seen this syndrome on a few guitars, most very high end brands. I even ordered and sent back a very pricey and well known acoustic (not Martin) with the same fault. Some otherwise great guitar builders can deal the occasional bad draw.

[Czar Of Zonk]

Hi,

Just got and tried out the Fat Finger and, sure enough, it worked;
Now, sustain on this "dead spot" now lasts about 10 times longer
(it was pretty dead to begin with, so 10 times isn't saying a lot);

So, the question becomes -- Can I leave the Fat Finger affixed?
Or, would this leave a lasting mark of some kind over the long haul?

I don't have it on really tight, it's fairly loose, just snug enough;
I'm thinking leave it on, full time, more or less;

Aesthetically, it's not bad to look at; I got the gold, which matches;

Come to think of it, I have an SE that could use a little help as well;

Now, any function I get, with the Fat Finger on, will be payback time;
I can chat on and on about the lack of QC at the factory; sigh...

[Bruce O'Donnell]

Just got and tried out the Fat Finger and, sure enough, it worked; Now, sustain on this "dead spot" now lasts about 10 times longer (it was pretty dead to begin with, so 10 times isn't saying a lot);

So, the question becomes -- Can I leave the Fat Finger affixed?
Or, would this leave a lasting mark of some kind over the long haul?
Glad it worked out for you. Aspen Pittman (Mr. Groove Tube himself) developed a more permanent fix to the Fat Finger - it's called the Fathead. Basically a plate that fits on the back of the headstock. As I recall GT sold it and then pulled it - not sure if there was a conflict of interest since he was the sole distributor of the Fat Finger. According to GT's site it's available exclusively on ZZ Ryder guitars, but there's no info on their website. I'm curious how much it weighs compared to the fat finger. There's an email address on GT's website for sales of the Fathead. Details here:

http://www.groovetubes.com/product.cfm?Product_ID=2130

[Czar Of Zonk]

Bruce,

I can not thank you enough for your help and assistance;

I decided not to keep the fat finger on the guitar full time;
The SAS has a nitro finish for the neck and headstock;
It's easy enough to attach and detach the fat finger;
I'll probably use the fat finger when I am recording, mostly;
Fpr general practice and non-critical playing situations,
I'm fine to leave it off; Or, when it's hanging on the wall,
of course, no need to have it on; Also, a la the nitro finish,
I have a polishing cloth between the headstock and the
rubber grip of the wall hanger; I figure, this way the guitar
is in as much natural cosmetics as possible;

But, when I need/desire the playability, I simply affix the
fat finger; As for the fat head, yeah it looks like it would
have to be shaped individually for each headstock;

The PRS headstock doesn't leave a lot of room for accessories,
so to speak; The fat finger worked best when affixed to the
top long horn/wing (only); Although I was able to slip the
fat finger elsewhere (between tuners), it was awkward and
not as effective; The longest/end-most configuration provided
the most stabilityand effective sustain;

I decided to order another one, in chrome, just as a precaution;
I have an SE standard which is pretty decent, but I'll take all
the sustain I can get; Funny, but my two EGs are phenomenal;

Don't buy any guitar without playing it first; [not an option for me, here]

[IIIBoomerIII]

I did not read thru the entire thread, did you try
adjusting the height of the neck pup? Lower the
neck pup and see if that helps. I have heard that
the problem with 22 vs 24 fret guitars is where the
magnetic field from the neck pup is pulling down. I
have seen this in Strats, SGs, and Les Pauls. You
lower the neck pickup a hair and the whole thing goes
away. I can not even begin tell you how many times
I have seen this problem in guitars I have worked on.
Simple easy fix…worth a try.


Eddie

[Czar Of Zonk]

Hi, The issue is not electo-magnetic, as the dead spot is there when played without being plugged in (and, solved via the fat finger);

[George Johnson]

The issue is not electro-magnetic, as the dead spot is there when played without being plugged in
FWIW, magnet pull is not dependent upon being plugged in. :)

[Rabidhamster]

well, with magnetic pull, it would be there unplugged as well, thats the way it works. In this case its PROBABLY not it, but as Eddie, I've seen it work countless times. Its worth a shot at least, only requires a couple turns of a screw drive, and can be put back if you dont like it.

[Bruce O'Donnell]

Not to rain on the "magnet pull" parade, but if that was causing the problem then the Fat Finger wouldn't have helped. Magnet pull can be a problem, but its generally not isolated to a single string at a specific fret since the distance between the string and the pole piece doesn't change much from fret to fret. If magnet pull is a problem at the 12th fret, it's a problem at 13th, 14th, 15th......