Rosewood necks: the importance of grain?

[P90s]

RosewI've seen a lot of different BRW necks with very different woodgrain, everything ranging from very tight to big waves. Are there any generally accepted "facts" about the benefits of one type of woodgrain over another from a tone and stability standpoint, or is it impossible to generalize?

Thanks,
P90s

[tdarian]

I actually have the the same question, as I'm contemplating a Modern Eagle. I'm way less interested in "cosmetics for cosmetics sake" and totally concerned about tone & playability. The ME necks I've seen (only 2 in person and the rest online at dealers) seem to all over the map in terms of grain pattern, wood coloration, etc. Any advice from those who have experience would be appreciated here too!

[Rusmurf]

The straighter the grain, the better, for the longterm stability of the neck. I think this is mainly based on the way the neck was cut, and I'd reject one based on this.

Swirl patterns on the fretboard, don't matter as much.

The color of the wood, isn't as important. Although the older BRW, seems to generally be the darker variety.

Bruce O'Donnell can pipe in on this I believe?

[Bruce O'Donnell]

It's not just rosewood necks, it's any wood. The straigher and more consistent the grain, the more stable it is going to be. Alot of manufacturers will saw a neck blank in half lengthwise and reglue the pieces back together. It relieves internal stresses in the wood, and like any laminate makes it stronger than the original. Carlos apparently insists on this for his BRW necks - and I'd only heard it as rumor, but as Reu pointed out in a BRW thread yesterday, Carl W managed to get a BRW Santana that was made for Carlos but he rejected (color?), and you can see the seam in the neck where it was split. But I digress. Luthiers love riftsawn wood - every piece has perfect symmetry, but as you can see in the pic, there's alot of waste and that means it costs more. Most luthiers spec quartersawn - PRS does for their IRW neck blanks, and virtually every IRW neck has beautiful vertical grain running from headstock to heel, with very uniform striping indicating very consistent growth from year to year. But when it comes to BRW, it's not so easy. As far back as the 1950's nearly all BRW was flatsawn (plainsawn in the pic) to maximize yield of an expensive resource. The wild figure you often see in BRW is the result of cutting parallel along growth wings. You don't get that in rift or quartersawn because the cuts are made perpendicular to the growth rings. Also notice that the center boards for a flatsawn log are essentially perpendicular to the rings, so it's as good as quartersawn and why some BRW has the characteristic vertical striping of quartersawn blanks.

http://planetjes.tripod.com/quartersawn.jpg

The issue is stability - how is the wood going to react to changes in temperature and humidity over it's life under the tension of the strings, which is not uniform from low E to high E - the tension wants to twist the neck. The more symmetrical the wood is, the more stable it will be. It makes little difference, IMHO, on solidbody guitars. PRS must concur, because they keep cranking out BRW necks and I have never, ever heard of a single issue. No warping or bowing, no frets popping up, no semi-annual truss rod adjustments, nada. There's just way too much wood, and the wood way too oily, to be affected by humidty. PRS also scraps alot necks, which says alot about their quality control.

It makes a huge difference in acoustic tops and backs, because the thickness of wood in proportion to the length and width makes it very susceptible to splitting as the wood expands and contracts with the seasons. This is why you rarely, if ever, see one-piece tops on acoustic guitars. The stresses have to be equalized across the top and the best way to do that is bookmatching, as each piece is a mirror of the other. Even so, cracks in the top and backs of vintage Martin guitars are a fact of life. Taylor has had some problems with cocabola (a type of rosewood) backs splitting. Gorgeous wood, but the wild figuring is the result of localized stresses during the tree's growth. It is also common for vintage Martin's to split along the edge of the pickguard due to the pickguard plastic reacting with the lacquer and shrinking/buckling. It's not uncommon to have the necks of Gibsons or Martins reset due to these types of problems, particularly those with no adjustable truss rods.

From a tone standpoint, IMHO it doesn't really matter on solidbody guitars. Way too many variables to be able to gauge the affect of quartersawn vs. flatsawn. While the ME might not be everyone's cup of tone tea, I've never heard of a dud. I don't think PRS would let one out the door that was. I have 4 BRW necks and 3 IRW. Every BRW neck I have was likely flatsawn, and two have the figuring to prove it. My favorite are the dark, almost pitch black with little visible graining. They tend to be smoother. Everyone of them sounds mahvelous, which is why I keep them.

[MoJo JoJoe]

Fantastic post!! Thanks P90s for posing the interesting question, and thanks even more Bruce for your informed and clear answer.

[hageshiku]

more sawing pictures if anyone is interested :p

http://www.hardwood.org/display_article.asp?ID=357

[brianf]

more sawing pictures if anyone is interested :p

http://www.hardwood.org/display_article.asp?ID=357
Thanks!!!!!



Great thread BTW.

brianf

[tdarian]

Thanks Bruce for the great and very detailed explanation, and Hageshiku for the great link. And thanks to everyone else who had answers, opinions, and like me, questions. I think I'll fret (no pun intended) a little less now about going for a ME. Doing this big purchase thing over the phone based upon dealer descriptions and web photos is a little nerve racking, but this is all very useful information.

Thanks!

tom

[Anders Destium]

So this is good, right?

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b233/Anders_Destium/PRS%20Custom%2024%20Rosewood%20in%20Raspberry/CuRoback2.jpg

And this is bad:

http://elderly.com/images/new_instruments/30N/SCME1_neck-back.jpg

How come the latter is so much more expensive? I'm beginning to wonder what the real "catch" is with BRW necks if there are just about only stumpwood (inferior) samples left :confused: Is there a real tonal difference or is it just a between the ears/eyes difference...

[Bruce O'Donnell]

So this is good, right? Yup
And this is bad: Nope. You're assuming that particular neck is stumpwood, but I've seen old growth BRW with similar color and figuring. Even if it is stumpwood, that doesn't make it bad. If they harvested trees leaving 8 feet of trunk out the ground, are you telling me that the wood from the 8-10 foot section is better than the 6-8 foot section? The issue is how distressed it is and whether you can carve it and not have it twist itself into a pretzel. I've seen that happen to primo acoustic spruce tops. PRS has never produced a defective BRW neck, I think they have a pretty good handle on what makes a quality neck. What I expect you will see in the future is two-piece necks........

How come the latter is so much more expensive? I'm beginning to wonder what the real "catch" is with BRW necks if there are just about only stumpwood (inferior) samples left :confused: Is there a real tonal difference or is it just a between the ears/eyes difference...Value is in the rarity, and as far as the dreadnought acoustic guitar goes, it's the tone standard for back and sides along with Adirondack Spruce tops. If none of that matters to you, IRW is the way to go. I've stated many, many times that I can hear no discernable tone difference between my IRW and BRW neck McCarty's. For me it's about the rarity, beauty, and being the most prized tonewood on the planet. I'll pass them down to my grandkids - by that time they'll be having the same discussion about IRW. There's no tone reasonn why 2003 R9 Custom Historics sell for $7000+ with a BRW board and $3500 with an IRW. It's strictly the fact that original 59 Les Pauls had BRW boards, and Gibson only made 673 R9's before Henry J's eco-conscience tapped him on the shoulder and he made them switch to IRW.

For that matter, I hope this stumpwood issue becomes a selling point. That will increase the value of my old growth, blanks bought from Martin, BRW McCarty's, which have been playing second fiddle to the ME's.

How long before we start seeing this selling point on fleaBay?? :D

[Anders Destium]

Thanks for the clarification :)

[Jon Silberman]

This incredibly informative thread should eventually be archived.

Bruce, if I may be so bold, how did you get so knowledgable on these topics?

[Norrin Radd]

This incredibly informative thread should eventually be archived.

Bruce, if I may be so bold, how did you get so knowledgable on these topics?

Agreed! This is one of the most informative things I've ever read on the internent (and it's extremely well written!). Thank you Bruce, for sharing that info with us.

I too, would like to know how you became so knowledgable on these topics. :)