Keebler - For or Against?

[Dan Desy]

This section is getting way too weepy. It needs a good kick in the ass.

Please discuss the topic at hand... :)

[Rusmurf]

Great cookies, I'm for!

[Greg Jones]

As long as those elves can keep Mr. Roman in check I'm all for it!

[Chops]

I am for it. I get a big kick out of listening to some dumb a$$ rave about a crappy Les Paul copy made in some dudes garage, like it has some kind of magic or something! Elves my a$$!
You wasn't talkin' 'bout cookies, was ya?

[gkoelling]

I polish off a minimum of one bag of Chips Deluxe per week and my waist line shows it! If ever get my hands on one of those dwarfs I'll squeeze the chocolate out of 'em!

[Scumbag]

Well, I'm not griping about mine, that's for sure... :dude:
http://southbayampworks.com/keebler/keebler1.jpg
Alternate angles below...
http://southbayampworks.com/keebler/keebler2.jpg
http://southbayampworks.com/keebler/keebler3.jpg

[Troubleman]

After gimpsing Scumbag's.. well it is hard to argue. Still - elves? (sigh).....


Peace,

jb

[Dan Desy]

JR asked me to proxy post for him, since he doesn't get around here much... :rolleyes:

He said something like:

it's absolutely scandalous that scumbags should be allowed to fraudently put manufacturer's logos on their fakes.

Mind you, I think he had been partaking in the malt liquor...

Where Matte when you need him? ;)

[Scumbag]

JR asked me to proxy post for him, since he doesn't get around here much... :rolleyes:

He said something like:

it's absolutely scandalous that scumbags should be allowed to fraudently put manufacturer's logos on their fakes.

Mind you, I think he had been partaking in the malt liquor...

Where Matte when you need him? ;)
Buahahahahaha. Frankly, I have no reason to complain. "The Elf" himself signed the control cavity on this one before it was painted.
http://southbayampworks.com/keebler/theelf.jpg
But aside from that, it's got alot of great parts and the fit, finish, playability, action and tone are second to none.

I've got a 61 Gibson wiring harness in there (Centralab pots/BB caps, jack), a Gibson Historic lightweight aluminum tailpiece, 60's ABR-1, WCR DarkBurst pickups, and a great fret dress job and bone nut. The Grover turners (replica keystone type) work great, much better than the Gibson "fall-apart" tuners I've had in the past, so it stays in tune well, too.

And, probably the most important thing...I got this as an unfinished, uncarved top, with the frets, inlays, binding, logo and routes already done as a birthday present from the wife three years ago... so my actual cash outlay is significantly reduced.

There's probably a downside here, and if someone can enlighten me to see it, I'd appreciate it.
;)

[Zilmo]

I hate those little elves. Annoying little bastids always making trouble and getting in the way. I voted for that Z guy.

[Jim Soloway]

Buahahahahaha. Frankly, I have no reason to complain. "The Elf" himself signed the control cavity on this one before it was painted.
http://southbayampworks.com/keebler/theelf.jpg
But aside from that, it's got alot of great parts and the fit, finish, playability, action and tone are second to none.

I've got a 61 Gibson wiring harness in there (Centralab pots/BB caps, jack), a Gibson Historic lightweight aluminum tailpiece, 60's ABR-1, WCR DarkBurst pickups, and a great fret dress job and bone nut. The Grover turners (replica keystone type) work great, much better than the Gibson "fall-apart" tuners I've had in the past, so it stays in tune well, too.

And, probably the most important thing...I got this as an unfinished, uncarved top, with the frets, inlays, binding, logo and routes already done as a birthday present from the wife three years ago... so my actual cash outlay is significantly reduced.

There's probably a downside here, and if someone can enlighten me to see it, I'd appreciate it.
;)Who's name is on the peghead?

[Scumbag]

Who's name is on the peghead?
Why, Gibson, of course...it's illegal as hell, right?

[AaeCee]

Which cookies does it come with?

[Elbutcho]

What's a Keebler???

:confused:

[Jim Soloway]

Why, Gibson, of course...it's illegal as hell, right?And you don't see the downside?

[kingsleyd]

OK!!!! NOW it's starting to feel like TGP in here! All we need is Matte to chime in with the opposing viewpoint...

[Collie Ransom]

I think they're fine as long as they don't say Gibson on the headstock. If they do, that's counterfiting, and is no different than owning a fake Rolex.

[Dan Desy]

I think they're fine as long as they don't say Gibson on the headstock. If they do, that's counterfiting, and is no different than owning a fake Rolex.
But they do. That's the whole argument, in my mind.

[kingsleyd]

But they do. That's the whole argument, in my mind.Well... that and the fact that at least some of the guitars being discussed are of higher quality and greater accuracy [relative to the originals] than what the current owner of the trademark sees fit to produce and offer to the marketplace as an "Historic Reissue." (which renders the "Rolex knock-off" comparison useless)

[Dan Desy]

Well... that and the fact that at least some of the guitars being discussed are of higher quality and greater accuracy [relative to the originals] than what the current owner of the trademark sees fit to produce and offer to the marketplace as an "Historic Reissue." (which renders the "Rolex knock-off" comparison useless)
That's not the argument. How does IT justify the name forgery on the headstock?

[Adam]

That's not the argument. How does IT justify the name forgery on the headstock?
Well, I think legally there is no justification. That said...

If someone wants a Keebler, they want a Keebler.

If they want a Gibson, they want a Gibson.

Certainly no one who owns a Keebler would sell it to someone else without telling them what it really was, right? There is a specific market for those things, and I'm guessing that they fetch a bit more $$$ than a used Historic, so they're not really overlapping all that much.

Besides, someone who has set out to own a Gibson because that brand is important to them would probably be put off by a replica. They want the "real thing," regardless of the fact that a Keebler may be truer in spec to an original Gibson.

I'm no lawyer but I'm pretty sure there's no legal way to do that, but for my own moral principles the justification above is good enough.

[µ¿ z3®ø™]

well it looks like there were no takers for this one:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7409789216

but at close to the value of a murphy historic i'm not surprised.
with a gagillion peeps out there slapping together parts guitars and then sticking a fender logo on the headstock, i hardly see the point of getting ones kickers in a knot over 8 guitars with a gibson logo on the headstock. there's a guy up here in canuckville that has made a few "gibson" gee-tars as well. fine instruments. imitation is the most serious form of flattery.

[kingsleyd]

That's not the argument. How does IT justify the name forgery on the headstock?Justification (or lack thereof) is moot at this point -- Keeblers (and their ilk) exist. They're a done deal. They're out there in the Used Guitar Marketplace along with every other guitar anyone ever built. You can't turn back the clock and prevent them from existing. Nor can you legally prevent any individual from engaging in a private transaction involving the purchase and sale of one of these instruments. (you can "morally disapprove" all you want, but that and $3.50 will get you a latte at Starbucks) (oh... you can also, if you're a moderator on a certain forum, ban the discussion and sale of these instruments within the confines of the forum)

My explanation was intended to provide some insight as to the motivation of an individual to build or purchase such an instrument. Is that not what we're arguing about?

[kingsleyd]

Oh, and since nobody else has mentioned this yet, let's not forget that Gibson has profited greatly from the conspicuous public use of a "forgery" by that curly-haired dude from Guns'n'Roses.

[Scumbag]

My Keebler has the Gibson logo (they all do), but since the maker got his "cease and desist" order, it's pretty much a dead issue.

However, the build quality, wood, tone, and playability make it a "Keeper" for me. Replica making has always been an "underground" thing, no doubt about it. If it weren't for the desire to have a better guitar than what Gibson produces currently, I'd imagine they wouldn't exist at all.

[Dan Desy]

Justification (or lack thereof) is moot at this point -- Keeblers (and their ilk) exist. They're a done deal. They're out there in the Used Guitar Marketplace along with every other guitar anyone ever built. You can't turn back the clock and prevent them from existing. Nor can you legally prevent any individual from engaging in a private transaction involving the purchase and sale of one of these instruments. (you can "morally disapprove" all you want, but that and $3.50 will get you a latte at Starbucks) (oh... you can also, if you're a moderator on a certain forum, ban the discussion and sale of these instruments within the confines of the forum)

My explanation was intended to provide some insight as to the motivation of an individual to build or purchase such an instrument. Is that not what we're arguing about?
Crack and Meth exist - done deal. I'm not sure the argument of their "benefits" is moot.

[kingsleyd]

Crack and Meth exist - done deal. I'm not sure the argument of their "benefits" is moot.Oh come on, Dan. That's a terrible analogy. (although certain PRSi contain what is lovingly referred to as "crackwood") You can't possibly compare the sort of societal harm that results from those substances to what happens when some luthier decides, for whatever reason, to build a replica of a classic guitar complete with the (admittedly illegal) use of "Gibson" on the headstock.

(And even then... there's a not inconsiderable amount of harm that results directly from the ILLEGALITY of those, and other, substances which any mature society would factor into the discussion about how to deal with the situation)