Synth guitar: would you still go MIDI?

[Christof Matthiesen]

Hi there,

I love using midi-guitar sounds but really hate the Roland GK2 which I am using at the moment. It is too slow and unaccurate in tracking and always in the way of my right hand. I am thinking of upgrading to a RMC or Graphtech system, but I am kind of hesitant to spend the money. Especially since I am thinking about getting a custom-made guitar including synth options.

With all these new technologies coming up from Line6, Gibson Magix(?) etc. I am not sure if a better (and more expensive) Midi-system would pay off, or if Midi-guitar pickups are yesterday´s technology within the next year or two.

What would you think? Build a guitar with a midi pickup *right now* or wait for the "LAN-cable to connect directly from the guitar to the internet?" I really don´t know. What I *DO* know is that I need something better than the GK2 *NOW*.

[Tom Gross]

I find the RMC on my Godin is just wonderful. It tracks real well. I wouldn't wait, since you never know when the new technology will get there, and at first all new technology is expensive, buggy, and restricted in what it will work with.

[BLOYD]

I bought one of those Ibanez 2010 guitar synths years ago...what a waste...I can see where you would be gun shy.

Are you using the VG-88? I've heard from alot of people that it works well for 'em if properly setup...as of late, I'm not that familiar with the midi technology but I'm looking to get something in the near future. I'd sure like to hear more input myself before I go out and make any purchases.

[mcarty1]

Hi there,

I love using midi-guitar sounds but really hate the Roland GK2 which I am using at the moment. It is too slow and unaccurate in tracking and always in the way of my right hand. I am thinking of upgrading to a RMC or Graphtech system, but I am kind of hesitant to spend the money. Especially since I am thinking about getting a custom-made guitar including synth options.

With all these new technologies coming up from Line6, Gibson Magix(?) etc. I am not sure if a better (and more expensive) Midi-system would pay off, or if Midi-guitar pickups are yesterday´s technology within the next year or two.

What would you think? Build a guitar with a midi pickup *right now* or wait for the "LAN-cable to connect directly from the guitar to the internet?" I really don´t know. What I *DO* know is that I need something better than the GK2 *NOW*.OK, first of all it seems that you are confusing the three technologies...the MIDI technology, The Gibson Technology (MAGIC) and the Line 6 technology. First MIDI has three different types of pickups that I am aware of ( may be more, but I don't know about them, so I will adress what I know, OK?) The three types of MIDI guitar pickups are:

1. The Roland GK2A pickup. This considered the bottom of the barrel as far as sensitivity of a striked note ot "tracking" as it is called. I started out with a Roland GK2A pickup and put it on a cheap Peavey Raptor guitar and played it through my Roland GR-33 MIDI guitar floorboard unit. It was OK, but VERY ANNOYING! And yes, I set it up about as well as you can set it up, but when you can't adjust the pickup to each indivudial string.... there is only so much you can do with it, I don't care what anybody says, the GK2A is very limited when it comes to tracking! Then I bought a mexican made Fender Roland Ready strat with the Roland GK2A pickup built in....this guitar was MUCH better as far as tracking goes, but STILL had the pops, hiss and crackles I experienced with the removable GK2A pickup!

2. So then I sold it and bought a Brian Moore 81.13 guitar and I am simply in LOVE with it! This guitar is the lowest on the Brian Moore line that has MIDI capability, as it is made in CHINA, but it has THE SAME MIDI PICKUP used in the more expensive Brian Moore MIDI models and Godin MIDI guitar models! Here is a link to it:
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/sid=040219055807012221005003298116/g=home/search/detail/base_id/105416
As you can see, it is only $750.00 on musicians friend with free shipping. It Also has two Alinco equipped humbuckers as well as a bolt on neck with Piezo pickups! The RMC system blows away the Roland pickups, because they are on each indivudial string! I like this system MUCH better than the Roland! Now they say that the Godin classical guitar with MIDI has the best tracking for an RMC equipped system, but I didn't get one , because I didn't play classical a whole lot and besides that, the Brian Moore was a guitar that had THREE poickup systems, the RMC MIDI, the humbuckers and the Piezo.

3. Then finally there is Graph Tech's GHOST system, which has to be internally installed and costs around $600.00 for the parts to put into a guitar that you would have to modify. (they reccomend a strat) This system is supposed to be the best there is as far as MIDI goes! They have a video you can watch of someone playing one on a modified strat on the pickups are lightning fast! You can go to Graph Tech's site and watch the video. www.graphtech.com (http://www.graphtech.com/)


Another new technology that is brand new is From Line 6 and used on their Variax guitars. These guitars are GUITAR MODELERS not MIDI guiatrs! They simulate the sound of famous strats, les pauls, etc. But I don't think they are MIDI capable at all that I know of! They have now come out with a variax accoustic, which simulates the sound of famous Martins, Taylors, Gibsons, etc.


Then finally, there is the MAGIC system from Gibson. This is supposed to operate on a CAT 5 cable and be able to make it to where a user could run 6 differen sounds on each indivudial string if he wanted to. But this technology is so new it isn't even out yet! They only have the Les Paul prototype and it is not even in production yet! Another thing to note, is that when this new Les Paul makes it's introduction to the public, it might not have any MODULES to hook up to it, because the technology is so new! So I would think about that before you bought one of those modified Digital Les Pauls!


All in all, if it is MIDI guitar you are after, you may want to go with either the RMC pickups in a guitar equipped for it, or the Graph Tech GHOST system. The only drawback to the GHOST system, is that they don't have any of their systems in production model guitars....you have to either do it yourself or pay someone to install it for you. If you are just wanting an affordable MIDI guitat that is light years ahead of the Roland pickups, you may want to get a Brian Moore or Godin! That Brian Moore 81.13 model is the cheapest RMC equipped guitar that I know of, but it plays great and I have NO problems with pops hiss and crackling like on the Roland pickup! It is your choice, I am just pointing out the options available to you! Hope this helps!

(PS: Just thought of something, if you are having a guitar made for you and you still want the GHOST system installed, that would be a good way to go. Because you could have the factory install it while they are installing everything else! I know people on other boards that have done this and the builders don't seem to mind. That is one way you could have a GHOST system in a production model!)

[mcarty1]

I bought one of those Ibanez 2010 guitar synths years ago...what a waste...I can see where you would be gun shy.

Are you using the VG-88? I've heard from alot of people that it works well for 'em if properly setup...as of late, I'm not that familiar with the midi technology but I'm looking to get something in the near future. I'd sure like to hear more input myself before I go out and make any purchases.
The Roland VG-88 is a Modeler, NOT a dedicated MIDI guitar synth! If you want that, you have to use something like the Roland GR-33 or the new Roland GR-20. (this is like a cut down version of the GR-33 from what I can tell....it was shown at NAMM this year!) The VG-88 will get some MIDI guitar sounds, though it's sole purpose is a modeler, like the line 6 stuff. You can also use a GI-10 or GI-20 if you just want a box to hook up your MIDI guitar to a keyboard module. (You can also do this with the GR-33, but the delay in tracking the notes to and from the Module is bad! You would be better off going with a dedicated box like the Roland GI-10 or GI-20! Then again, if you just wanted the BEST there is, you could get the AXON AX 100. This is a dedicated MIDI guitar module that is used as an interface like the GI 10 or GI-20 between the MIDI guitar and a keyboard module, but they are around $1,000.00 NEW and about $800.00 USED!)

[mcarty1]

If you are wanting the absolute BEST MIDI guitar system, then you would want:

1. A guitar either modified or built from a factory with the GHOST MIDI guitar system installed.

2. The AXON AX 100 MIDI guitar module.

3. A keyboard module with professional sounds of your choice.


That was the absolute best you could get with minimal delay, but for us "mere mortals" this would suffice:

1. either a Roland GR-33 or GR-20 floorboard MIDI guitar unit that has sounds built right in. OR

2. A Roland GI-10 or GI-20 module with a keyboard module of your choice.

3. A RMC equipped MIDI guitar or modified guitar with the GHOST system installed.



I have: a Brian Moore 81.13 RMC MIDI guitar running into a Roland GR-33 MIDI guitar floorboard unit that goes out to my guitar amp which goes out to the PA. Simple, but effective!

[Tom Gross]

Great posts, mcarty1!

Just for reference, I use the Godin LGAXT with RMC system, it had piezo, SD humbuckers, and RMC outs all blendable. I use it into a Roland GR-30. The horn sounds (trumpet, sax, horn sections, etc.) are amazing. I love it.

[Christof Matthiesen]

wow mcarty1,

that was one for the archive. Thank you very much for tons of information.

Most probably I am going to go with the Graphtec system build into a custom made guitar into a GR 33, which I already have.

I wasn´t aware of Brian Moore being so cheap. 750 sounds like a really good deal - I wouldn´t use the piezo though. Don´t like them, but for an all-in-one guitar it is a superb price.

On that Line6/Gibson thing: I know that currently they are using a different technology, but I think it´s a small step to synth guitar -especially for L6- since they have digitized the string signal already anyway. That was/is my main concern when thinking about a new Midi-system (or not). Or am I getting something wrong here technically? I still think the fully-equipped digital guitar is near, very near.

Thanks all
Christof

[mcarty1]

.

Most probably I am going to go with the Graphtec system build into a custom made guitar into a GR 33, which I already have.

Yeah, Ilike that GHOST system. I am thinking of having someone like Carvin USA build me one and sending them the GHOST parts to put in it!



On that Line6/Gibson thing: I know that currently they are using a different technology, but I think it´s a small step to synth guitar -especially for L6- since they have digitized the string signal already anyway. That was/is my main concern when thinking about a new Midi-system (or not). Or am I getting something wrong here technically? I still think the fully-equipped digital guitar is near, very near.
Well as far I am aware of, neither line 6 nor Gibson is going to go in the direction of MIDI. I think mostly what Line 6 is interested in is modeling. At least, most of the line 6 boards I am on, have not mentioned anything about them going into MIDI guitar. But it would be a no brainer for them if they ever did decide to do it.

And as far as this new Magic system, well who knows? They don't have a working model used with a module that is built for it to be able to tell. But from what I have read on Gibsons site, they are wanting to use the Magic system in hospitials and recording studios and different places. So I am thinking that the Les Paul is just the tip of the iceberg as far as what that system will be capable of doing. I think the Les Paul is being used as a marketing tool for showing potential customers what the Magic system can do, rather than just be about the guitar itself! But they really have not mentioned MIDI guitar as one of the things it will be doing. They said it could send and recieve MIDI information, like a module does, but to translate a MIDI signal to a guitar signal like a MIDI guitar does? I don't know, but it would not be a big step to make it happen though.


All in all, Both Gibson and Line 6 have the capacity to make a MIDI guitar if they wanted to, but mabye they figure that Godin, Brian Moore and Roland already are producing these guitars (Not to mention Graph Tech and their GHOST MIDI pickup) so they want to head in a different direction? One thing is for certian, though, the future will have some choices for guitarists that they didn't previously have!

[mcarty1]

One thing I must stress when using a MIDI guitar, is that when you are playing something on it....say a flute for example.....you are supposed to try to mimic a FLUTE....not play a guitar! The reason most people get fustrated with MIDI guitar, is because they try to play it like a regular guitar and expect the instrument they are trying to duplicate to sound just like what they are playing! But think about this.....would you play a flute the same as you would play a regular guitar?? OF COURSE NOT! With a flute you have single notes, trills (kind of like hammer ons on a guitar) and other ways of making a flute sound like a flute!


So WHY would you strike a G chord and expect a flute to sound like that?? You have to change your playing to FIT the instrument you are trying to duplicate! I don't care how sensitive of a MIDI guitar pickup system you have, if you play it like a regular guitar, then the instruments you are mimicking will sound horrible! On the other hand, if you listen to recordings of flute players in songs or piano players or whatever you are trying to duplicate and adjust your guitar playing to that, then you can create a very realistic sounding MIDI guitar! It is all in the way you play it!

[mcarty1]

.

On a total tangent, have you tried a Roger Linn AdrenaLinn? You can get some interesting, surprisingly synthy sounds out of that with a straightforward mono analog guitar.

What is that??(Roger Linn AndreaLinn) I have never heard of one! Is it some sort of Module or something??? Do you have a link with info on it??

[Christof Matthiesen]

Lots of interesting points here.

The Adrenalinn II sounds like a cool device. I haven´t played it yet, but have the strange feeling that it will be "like a toy" after you spend some time with it. But I like these time-based effects and processed drums. Great stuff.

About playing synth-guitar: I too have found that you need to adjust your playing AND your choice of notes to certain sounds. For some strange reason I find it very easy to come up with "convincing" horn- or analog-synth parts. Not that I think I am overly talented but it comes just naturally, whereas sounds like Rhodes and/or piano are VERY hard to play. I think I would always leave these parts for a piano-player. Basically all sounds with a more or less soft attack are great for synth-guitar, whereas hard attack sounds don´t work for me (with the GK2).
Another problem with the GR33 is, that one cannot adjust the string-to-string dynamics per patch, but globally only. This is ok for recording but makes a lot of sounds unusable for live playing. Strange, why Roland doesn´t fix this...

On the VG88: yes, it basically can qualify as a complete digital solution, but it sounds, well, not my cup of tea... I think the Roland/Boss modelling sounds are just not good enough. Plastic, you know?

Thanks
Christof

[mcarty1]

About playing synth-guitar: I too have found that you need to adjust your playing AND your choice of notes to certain sounds. For some strange reason I find it very easy to come up with "convincing" horn- or analog-synth parts. Not that I think I am overly talented but it comes just naturally, whereas sounds like Rhodes and/or piano are VERY hard to play. I think I would always leave these parts for a piano-player. Basically all sounds with a more or less soft attack are great for synth-guitar, whereas hard attack sounds don´t work for me (with the GK2).



Thanks
Christof


Maybe you ought to check out a RMC equipped MIDI guitar! The tracking difference between the RMC and the Roland GK pickups are like night and day! I can play a Grand Piano on my GR-33 using chords on my Brian Moore and I can hear each note clearly! This was NOT the case with the roland ready strat, though. Fender Rhodes gets the same results!

[Daddyo]

Then finally, there is the MAGIC system from Gibson. This is supposed to operate on a CAT 5 cable and be able to make it to where a user could run 6 differen sounds on each indivudial string if he wanted to. But this technology is so new it isn't even out yet! They only have the Les Paul prototype and it is not even in production yet! Another thing to note, is that when this new Les Paul makes it's introduction to the public, it might not have any MODULES to hook up to it, because the technology is so new! So I would think about that before you bought one of those modified Digital Les Pauls!



I wouldn't hold my breath for the Gibson Magic system. The company has made a fortune producing replicas of their own guitars made over 50 years ago. They have trouble wrapping their heads around the concept of using a correct $3.00 capacitor instead of a $.25 capacitor. How could they possibly even comprehend a synth?

[mcarty1]

I wouldn't hold my breath for the Gibson Magic system. The company has made a fortune producing replicas of their own guitars made over 50 years ago. They have trouble wrapping their heads around the concept of using a correct $3.00 capacitor instead of a $.25 capacitor. How could they possibly even comprehend a synth?


Well I think that they have different people doing the research and development for the magic system, so it might not be Gibson employees at all! But this technology is so new, I have a wait and see attitude about it right now. But I will still try to be as open minded as I can about it. I believe in giving things a chance, then if they don't pan out...they just don't! But that isn't because I didn't believe in the product in the first place. Mabye Gibson will suprise everyone with this....then again, mabye not. Who knows?