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View Full Version : How do you get a rock guitarist to stop playing?


feloniuspunk
12-03-2005, 11:40 AM
Put the music in front of him ...


That's an old guitar joke but it was just to get your attention. The real question of this thread is: "Why do so many guitar players refuse to learn to read music?" I'm talking about simple stuff here folks, not the orchestral score to the Nutcracker Suite. Even really basic chord charts and lead sheets scare the bejesus out of some guitarists.

I contend that most guitarists know a lot more than they pretend to know anyway. I taught myself to read music a long time ago. Was it hard? Yes. Was it difficult? Yes. Did I struggle? Yes. Was it worth it? Yes!

I'm also a big believer in the idea that if "I" can do something, then anyone can. I'm certainly no rocket scientist (although my day job IS at NASA). When I talk to other guitarists one-on-one I usually find that many have experience playing in some capacity in church.

Church music. Now there's an interesting concept for you. However, if you have ever played in church you know that there is usually some kind of sheet music available for you if you want it. That said, you have at least seen music written on paper. It should not be that foriegn of a concept. When the melody notes climb up the stave, the notes get higher. When they climb down the stave, they get lower. It's a simple concpet really.

Unless you're the kind of person who learms everything by memory from a CD, then you really have no need of knowing how to read music. The older I got though the more I realized I just couldn't keep everything organized in my head. After you learn your first 1000 songs by memory they begin to merge together inside your brain.

Let's dispell some common myths.

#1 - If you learn to read music you will lose your soul to the devil. FALSE

#2 - If you learn to read music you will lose your musical "FEELING". FALSE

#3 - If you learn to read music you will be preoccuppied and it will hurt your playing. FALSE

It reminds me of how some really backwards and superstitious natives freak out if you take their photograph. They think their soul will somehow be captured in the photo and they will then walk the earth a zombie. Now I do know some zombies (there are many at NASA). But it is not because they are educated.

These people had social and character flaws before they ever got their educations and Ph. D.'s. The real bonus to learning to read music for a guitar player is that it will vastly expand the circle of other musicians who you can share musical ideas and play gigs with.

It will also increase and correct your musical vocabulary, a real help in discussing musical ideas and concepts with other musicians. It's a real help when trying to explain what a diminished chord is or a minor 7 flat 5 chord. Another side benefit of learning to read music is that you will automatically learn some theory along the way. It is inescapable.

I am in total favor of all musicians learning as much as they can about music, and that includes reading music itself. For guitarists, the real thing you need to know how to do is to read chord symbols and play a lot of simple 2/5 turnarounds, not complicated melody lines. That can come later if you need to play the melodies to songs.

There are many professional guitar gigs that want the guitar player as the CHORD player, not the melody player. I know that if you're in a rock band that is NOT the case. In rock bands the proverbial "LEAD" guitar player is king, God, the absolute ruler of everything that happens in the band musically. But there are many other types of music gigs where the guitar player is just another sideman. Why close yourself off from applying for those gigs because you refuse to learn to read music?

When putting together my groups I first always ask my sideman prospects two questions: #1 - Can you read? #2 - Do you own a black tux? Realize that the answer to each question is either a yes or a no and not an invitation for debate. If they answer both questions yes then the conversation continues.

LEARN TO READ MUSIC. Schroeder (the piano player) in the comic strip Peanuts says: "Security is having the music in front of you." If you already know the song you're playing then the sheet music just becomes a reference point of commonality with what everyone else is playing. Hence the origin of the saying: "Everyone was not playing off the same sheet of music."

People hate change. Learning is painful and difficult and time consuming. It requires admitting that you don't know everything. But all things that are worthwhile are usually difficult and require some investment of your time and energy. Guitarists will invest huge amounts of time in getting their gear right and their technique and their tone (and their hair and their clothes) but when it comes to actually learning the language of their craft they shy away. It doesn't make sense.

I learned to read music and I am still the same clever, fun-to-be-with person I always was. I initially learned music by ear from old 45 rpm records of the Beach Boys and Beatles and played that way for 20 years before I took the next step. Boy did I waste a lot of time. If you're younger than me right now (I'm 56) then learn to read music! You won't regret it and it will enhance your musical life in many untold ways we can't cover here for lack of time and space.

You can learn easier than you think too. Ask someone at church for help. Ask a friend who already knows how to read. Ask your guitar teacher to teach you some theory and how to read a basic lead sheet. It ain't rocket science. I live in an area where there are many military musicians and most groups I play in are with sidemen who are musical instructors by day. What a great opportunity to pick their brains. (Some are better teachers and share info better than others).

You can also safely assume in any given situation that all horn players and most keyboard players already know how to read music. You will be able to communicate with them much better if you can too. I do not however recommend that, as a guitarist, you learn to read music from a keyboard player. Keyboard chord voicings are vastly different from guitar chord voicings. It takes a truly enlightened keyboard player to teach a guitar player how to read music and voice chords without incorrectly biasing you from a keyboard perspective.

Most guitar chord voicings span at least two octaves while most keyboard voiced chords played by the right hand span less than one. The keyboard players' left hand plays the bass notes while the right hand adds the upper tensions and flavors. Us guitar players have to use guitar friendly chord voicings that capture the same essence of the same chord. The two don't often mix well.

When you hear a guitarist and a keyboard player who sound good together, learn to appreciate the subtle fact that they are intentionally staying out of each others way musically.

And above all, as musicians, remember to always listen to each other. Music is way more about listening than it is playing.

===================================

How many guitar players does it take to change a light bulb?

Four - One to change the bulb and three more to tell him how much better they could have done it.

I'll leave you with that last joke, but it does point to the fact that most guitar players have inflated egos. Learning to read music usually gives a guitar player a much needed helping of humility. That's why putting the music in front of a rock guitar player is one of the best ways to get him to stop playing. He's suddenly confronted with what to him looks like a brick wall with some foriegn language scribbled on it.

Here's a clue - It's not a brick wall. It's the instructions.

Aldwyn
12-03-2005, 02:48 PM
I actually have a reverse situation. I learned to read music at a young age. Then forgot, and have had a hard time trying to learn again.

Even tried tab try and make it easier... and tab was hard for me to learn, as well... I am still way slow at reading both.

Should have kept up with it. :(

TheArchitect
12-03-2005, 04:31 PM
Um, OK. Do you work for Mel Bay or something?

Jo
12-03-2005, 05:13 PM
I'd love to be able to read music properly. I read it really slowly and always have unfortunately, but I continue to work on it though not enough. :(

A good friend and I would often go up to London to visit all the music stores, and her fav stop was at one of the stores that sold lots of old sheet music. She would pick up various classicial scores with maybe 4 or 6 lines of instruments at a time on it and start reading it like a book saying things like "oooh yes, this is a nice piece of music" ..."nah I don't like that one" while humming the melody and wiggling her fingers in the air in time to it.

What a cool skill to have. I was always jealous that she could just hear how it would sound by looking at it. On the train ride home I'd be reading a magazine while she was reading some complicated music score, at least when we got back home she'd teach me the music so we could play together. :o

If it was really easy to learn to read music, I couldn't understand why anyone would not want to learn how to do it. Knowledge is power right?

TRandy16
12-03-2005, 08:05 PM
Nick,


I think it's about impatience and "instant" gratification. A 14 or 15 year old youngster wants to rock...now....not learn to comprehend the nuances of I-VI-II-V-I changes....even if it would behoove him to do so.

Plus, frankly, a lot of the current music (please notice I said a lot...not all currrent music..so no need to flame me) is pretty basic in it's chordal structure. It's human nature for younger musicians and wannabe's to want to play what they hear on the radio, or MTV, or their CD's or iPods...whatever....and usually it really doesn't involve a need to read....plus the tab "thing' has gotten really huge from when you and I were younger and, in a way, when they learn to understand tablature....they are "reading" in a fashion I suppose...and I think that's a good thing.

Now it's true that reading tablature doesn't teach you harmony or much theory....but it is a tool that can be very helpful to a young aspiring guitarist...it helps them unlock doors that might take a long time to unlock if they didn't have the ability at their disposal.

Learning to read music is a further exploration of the art form...not unlike having a college degree versus having only a high school diploma...your musical life does change when you have that tool in your musical toolbox....no doubt about it.

jmadill
12-03-2005, 10:50 PM
Actually, in my experience, there may be some exceptions to your rules, FeloniusPunk.

When I first me my wife, I was a two-finger rock guitar wannabe, and she was a classically trained guitarist. I could mostly improvise, and she could only perform written music after careful, repeated practice.

She could not jam, or play without having it written in front of her. I couldn't read, and my technique sucked. She taught me technique, which quickly got me to the point where I couldn't play ANYTHING. I tried to get her to "open up" and jam or create music, and she just quit ... feeling she had no creative abilities. On occasion, I got music theory from her, but that was the extent of her involvement in music for the longest time.

Over the years, I kept trying to get her to make SOME KIND of music, and would buy her various instruments to encourage her, but that usually failed.

Within the last year, we met a couple that became our friends. The other woman played guitar and sang, and my wife finally got enthusiastic about playing again, but again with the sheet music or tabs.

One day, she started playing one of my acoustics that was tuned to DADGAD. Nothing worked for her. No scale patters, or chord fingerings that she was familiar with. She came to me, and asked me how to play it, and I told her simply that you just pick it up and figure it out as you go. Whatever you play is right.

Before the day was over, she had created her first song. Now, she has a Taylor 810CE that I traded my Custom 22 for, and has assumed control of my two Taylors as well. She has written a few songs, learned other altered tunings, and has figured out BY EAR quite a few Michael Hedges songs. To make matters more interesting, she also has been performing some of this stuff at a local club.

Q: How do you make a classically trained guitarist start creating?
A: Hand them a guitar in non-standard tuning.

-jm (who EVENTUALLY got over the technique thing ...)

DanHund
12-05-2005, 07:47 AM
I just never found the need to learn to read sheet music. Everything I wanted to learn to play, I either figured out on my own, or would find at least halfway decent tablature for. Nowadays, with so much tab on the web, it's even easier to get by without reading music.

Granted, I play 99% rock music. Might be a wildly different story if I were playing jazz or classical.

Jo
12-05-2005, 08:24 AM
I just never found the need to learn to read sheet music. Everything I wanted to learn to play, I either figured out on my own, or would find at least halfway decent tablature for. Nowadays, with so much tab on the web, it's even easier to get by without reading music.

Granted, I play 99% rock music. Might be a wildly different story if I were playing jazz or classical.
Yeah, but if there was a pill you could swallow which would give you all that knowledge, wouldn't you take it?

DanHund
12-05-2005, 09:50 AM
Yeah, but if there was a pill you could swallow which would give you all that knowledge, wouldn't you take it?
What are you getting from sheet music, that I don't get from looking at (good) tablature and listening to the music? Frankly, assuming that there is rhythm included in the tab, what am I missing from sheet music?

I never said that I wouldn't be willing to learn, just that I never found the need to. Operative word being "need". Tell me what I'm missing.

Jo
12-05-2005, 10:02 AM
What are you getting from sheet music, that I don't get from looking at (good) tablature and listening to the music? Frankly, assuming that there is rhythm included in the tab, what am I missing from sheet music?

I never said that I wouldn't be willing to learn, just that I never found the need to. Operative word being "need". Tell me what I'm missing.
Knowing music theory is so much more than just reading sheet music. Sight reading is the easy part. Understanding how a song is put together, what scales work over where, which chords you can substitute for other chords, working out 4 part harmony lines etc, etc.

So if there was a pill you could take which would give you all that knowledge, you really wouldn't want it? I'll take your ration then. :)

johnreardon
12-05-2005, 10:14 AM
What worries me at times is the apparent lack of passion that I see some, and I stress, some 'readers' display when they are playing. I'm not necessarily talking about just guitars.

People playing any instrument reading from sheet music just interpret what the writer has jotted down and don't seem to put any of their own feelings into the music. They play almost robotic like. They also don't appear to be able to play ad-lib with others.

Where I play tonight, there are a group of sax players who just play from sheet music. Now, even if you allow for the fact that one or two are learners, there always seems to be something lacking in what they play. It's almost too clean. I have several times asked some of them to join in with us and only one was able to do so. I and several of my non-reading friends could join in almost anything they play.

Having said the above, I do think it's an advantage for a non-reader to learn to read and I will endeavour to do so when my life is less hectic

Peter
12-05-2005, 10:48 AM
I can't think of a situation where having a skill would be a setback, and the skill of reading music is no exception. John, I wonder what your music-reading sax players would sound like if they didn't read? Would they play from the same old bag of tricks all the time, or mimic the parts they already know? Hard to believe that having the knowledge would bring them down.

It seems that the crowd that is against music reading often comes up with some great musician (Charlie Parker, Paul McCartney, Chopin, whatever) who "couldn't read a note". To me this brings up the point that there is more than one way to read music. Parker, for example, may not have been able to read staff notation (or maybe he could - but there's some other great jazz player who couldn't. Just substitute him.) but he certainly knew his chords, his scales, his notes, everything. Staff notation is just a convenient way of recording what's supposed to happen.
Tab is just as legitimate - better in some ways (it shows which strings to play the notes on) worse in others (hard to notate rhythm, hard to make recognizable chord shapes out of a bunch of numbers).
Staff notation has one huge advantage - its universality in Western Music. In that respect, there really is no excuse to not have at least a rudimentary ability to read. Like any other knowledge, it's one more tool in the toolbox, and you can't really have too many tools, any more than you can have too many guitars.

johnreardon
12-05-2005, 10:57 AM
I can't think of a situation where having a skill would be a setback, and the skill of reading music is no exception. John, I wonder what your music-reading sax players would sound like if they didn't read? Would they play from the same old bag of tricks all the time, or mimic the parts they already know? Hard to believe that having the knowledge would bring them down.

It seems that the crowd that is against music reading often comes up with some great musician (Charlie Parker, Paul McCartney, Chopin, whatever) who "couldn't read a note". To me this brings up the point that there is more than one way to read music. ..you can't really have too many tools, any more than you can have too many guitars.
Peter don't get me wrong, I'm not against reading music. Just passing on my, albeit fairly limited, observations, about a general trait of readers.

It may be that people like my sax players, have to learn how to play their instruments by being taught how to read at the same time. perhaps they cannot learn to play the same way as those who pick up their instruments by ear. I'm not saying one is better than the other, they are just different ways of being able to play.

I find it odd that they cannot ad-lib. They find it odd that I can, but can't read music.

DanHund
12-05-2005, 11:06 AM
Knowing music theory is so much more than just reading sheet music. Sight reading is the easy part. Understanding how a song is put together, what scales work over where, which chords you can substitute for other chords, working out 4 part harmony lines etc, etc.

So if there was a pill you could take which would give you all that knowledge, you really wouldn't want it? I'll take your ration then. :)
Are we talking about learning theory, or reading music?

Jo
12-05-2005, 11:14 AM
Are we talking about learning theory, or reading music?
All of it, sight reading is just part of music theory. Reading along with a lead sheet just tells you what's coming up next and where the song is going, you can then use your theory to tastefully play whatever you want over it.

If of course, all you're doing is just playing rock cover songs like the original then no, you don't need to read sheet music.

Peter
12-05-2005, 11:58 AM
Peter don't get me wrong, I'm not against reading music. Just passing on my, albeit fairly limited, observations, about a general trait of readers.

It may be that people like my sax players, have to learn how to play their instruments by being taught how to read at the same time. perhaps they cannot learn to play the same way as those who pick up their instruments by ear. I'm not saying one is better than the other, they are just different ways of being able to play.

I find it odd that they cannot ad-lib. They find it odd that I can, but can't read music.
Agreed on all points.

DanHund
12-05-2005, 12:40 PM
All of it, sight reading is just part of music theory. Reading along with a lead sheet just tells you what's coming up next and where the song is going, you can then use your theory to tastefully play whatever you want over it.

If of course, all you're doing is just playing rock cover songs like the original then no, you don't need to read sheet music.
I didn't know that sight reading was a prerequisite for learning music theory. I hardly think that knowing what set of notes works best over a particular set of chords is a skill that is exclusive to those who can read music. Or that if someone doesn't read music, that they can't improvise, or write their own songs.

What is sheet music? A decodable visual representation of a piece of music, right?
If I can decode that piece of music using other tools(ears, tablature, etc), what have I missed out on? Not trying to come off as an asshole, just wanting to know what reading music can get me that other tools cannot.

Peter
12-05-2005, 12:50 PM
I didn't know that sight reading was a prerequisite for learning music theory. I hardly think that knowing what set of notes works best over a particular set of chords is a skill that is exclusive to those who can read music. Or that if someone doesn't read music, that they can't improvise, or write their own songs.

What is sheet music? A decodable visual representation of a piece of music, right?
If I can decode that piece of music using other tools(ears, tablature, etc), what have I missed out on? Not trying to come off as an asshole, just wanting to know what reading music can get me that other tools cannot.
You're correct - you don't need to read music to know theory.
What does reading give you? The ability to play music without learning by ear, mostly. For melodic playing it's by far the best method, as tab doesn't work as well for rhythms.
It also gives you a nice graphic representation of what's going on. Looking at a cluster of notes on a staff you can quickly tell what kind of chord you have. Looking at the shape of a melody helps determine how it should be articulated. Seeing accidentals - notes outside of the key - gives you an idea of where a piece is going harmonically. (For example, if a sharp suddenly occurs in a measure, it's a fair bet that some dominant relationship is going on. You know - leather, whips, all that. No, not that - rather that some new chord is acting as a dominant, or V chord or another chord.)
And so on and so on. I think the analogy with spoken language works very well: it's one thing to be able to speak a language, but if you can read it, what more can you do?

lukeness
12-05-2005, 04:54 PM
sheet music: smile, grin

tabulature: :),:D

theory: Why go from smile to grin?

Peter
12-05-2005, 10:15 PM
sheet music: smile, grin

tabulature: :),:D

theory: Why go from smile to grin?

:D :dude:

However - and I hate to do what I'm about to do: defend music theory - if you know theory it's kind of like having a backstage tour to all the stuff you've only seen from the audience.
I don't like to defend music theory because I was a theory/comp major and at some point the theory got to the point of ridiculousness. You can go too far with it, lose sight of the actual music in all the calculations and permutations. That's the nature of the technical world, though.
If you get lost in technical matters, that's your own fault, not the fault of the system. If you lose your soul learning to read music, the little black dots on the page aren't to blame. Acquiring a tool ought to make you a better craftsman.
Just like a CNC machine, maybe! Some dolts feel that building a guitar with the help of a CNC somehow makes it less "handcrafted", but in truth it helps creates an instrument with more precision and consistency.

I'm sorry if I called you a dolt.

This same subject is going on at another forum, incidentally. Fun to see how the fools there are reacting. No, I won't post a link. It's not the Gear Page.

TRandy16
12-05-2005, 10:41 PM
How can one ever know "too much"?

Learning even the basics of music theory will open huge doors for any guitarist...it's a road map for where you want to go...even if you might not realize it at first....it will soon become apparent.

Case in point: Have you ever heard Robben Ford doing some really nice "outside" sounding solo work, even in the midst of a simple blues progression? Wouldn't you want to know what he's doing? The fact is that he plays a lot diminished and half-diminished scales/modes, etc., but you must be able to recognize what he's doing...which means you need to familarize yourself with those modes and scales i.e., through some basic music theory....it's a question of figuring out why and how things work the way they do....not unlike mathematics.

You don't play like Robben Ford without knowing your stuff...he studied for years with a number of jazz greats because he wanted to know it all. Think about it....among others he's toured with Joni Mitchell and Miles Davis.

Think that covers much ground musically?

feloniuspunk
12-06-2005, 12:23 AM
Plagiarize with pride, that's what I always say. Here's a quote I found on another board but it seemed somehow appropriate to post here just now:


Once you can accept the fact that all the matter in the universe is expanding into nothingness, wearing stripes with plaid becomes easy.

--Albert Einstein

BKRMON
12-07-2005, 11:27 AM
I'm not gonna tell anyone that learning theory & to read music is anything other than mind expanding and a good idea.

That said, if someone just wants to rock out...well, sight reading skills ain't what they need.