A Cool Trick

[Vinni Smith]

Here is a cool trick that I have been utilizing the past couple of years to raise a few eyebrows both live and in the studio. I will use the blues as a simple basis to explain my nonsense.

Let's say we are in the key of A. When the progression gets to the 4 chord, which would be D of course, try flying into a D# diminished type of triad lick or line. Or, even better yet, stay in the A Tonic and then 1/2 way thru the 4 chord, then go into the diminnished. It is odd but the D# fits a lot better than the regular D. Now, if you are in Dm then the D Diminished will fit much better.

Try this and let me know what you think. It is a cool and easy way to play out of the pocket.

Cheers to you all. Do good things.

vinni

[neastguy]

tricks are for kids!!! aw heck I had to say it.......:p

[BrianBaker]

thought it was Kicks are for Trids.

[Jo]

Is this any relationship to tritone substitutions(?), where you can use a D#7 in place of an A or vice versa?

[Vinni Smith]

thought it was Kicks are for Trids.
That's the way I heard it too.

v

[DanHund]

In English?

[BrianBaker]

In English?
punch line from an old joke. but i forgot the joke. Vinnie?

[Vinni Smith]

Is this any relationship to tritone substitutions(?), where you can use a D#7 in place of an A or vice versa?
Yes it is, Jo. That is exactly what it is. Larry Carlton likes to use the flat 5 chord. I prefer it as diminished, personally. Robben Ford uses a half/whole tone scale on many different starting points. Believe it or not, Peter Frampton used this exact thought in some of his playing in '75 & '76. Of course, a lot of jazz and fusion players do it to death.

Personally, I don't like a lot of out of the pocket playing that is done but some of it sounds very cool and hip if used in context of the song and not overdone.

Thanks for your response Jo.

vinni

[Vinni Smith]

punch line from an old joke. but i forgot the joke. Vinnie?
I don't remember it exactly but it had something to do with little elf-like beings called Trids and they were repeatedly being kicked. There also was a Rabbi in there somewhere. The punch line, of course was "Silly Rabbi, kicks are for Trids". Something like that..............

vinni

[jas]

In English?
If you miss the chord, move the whole damn thing up a fret and then play every third note. You'll sound like Vinni. ;)

-John

[tone4days]

nice vinni ... thanks for sharing it ... any tips on how to resolve it?

t4d

[Vinni Smith]

nice vinni ... thanks for sharing it ... any tips on how to resolve it?

t4d
Great question man!

I like to resove it on a high dominant 7th of the original tonic. Or even a 5th or 3rd. It all depends on which diminished position I use and if I go up or down with it.

vinni

[Vinni Smith]

If you miss the chord, move the whole damn thing up a fret and then play every third note. You'll sound like Vinni. ;)

-JohnHeh Heh heh.

Or Jeff (Skunk) Baxter! LOL

vinni

[tone4days]

Great question man!

I like to resove it on a high dominant 7th of the original tonic. Or even a 5th or 3rd. It all depends on which diminished position I use and if I go up or down with it.

vinnithanks vinni ... i was screwin' with this idea tonight and found myself running the D# diminished arpeggios and scale tones upward and getting to an A before chromatically nudging up to B (the 9th) when i resolved back to the I chord

very fun concept to wiggle around with

thanks
t4d

[Vinni Smith]

It is indeed a fun concept and it raises a few eyebrows when you pull it off right.

I think the diminished is much more musical than the whole/half diminished that Ford uses but this is just my taste.

Thanks for your reply man,

vinni

[Baba]

Pfft. I would try it if I knew what the hell you were talking about!

[wsaraceni]

Pfft. I would try it if I knew what the hell you were talking about!
me too

[Vinni Smith]

Pfft. I would try it if I knew what the hell you were talking about!I love to play blues and I-IV-V boogies and this is why I use them as examples.

I am going to break it down to bare bones if you don't mind me doing that.

In the key of A we have D as the 4 chord and E as the 5 chord. The D is usually a major chord but it can be minor in some situations. However, let's refer to it as major at this point.

When the progression is on the A chord I usually stay in A. Not always, but usually. I do like to go back and four between major and minor thirds, pentatonics and strait away major. Just different feels.

Now, when the rythym section goes into the 4 chord, (the D) then I like to use bits and pieces of diminished scales and triads. I use the D# position which consists of D#-F#-A-C. Please forgive me if these notes are wrong. I am at work right now and don't have a guitar in front of me.

Try this position:
Play a C note on the 5th fret of the 3rd string with your index finger.
Now play a D# on the same string with your pinky.
Now a F# on the 2nd string with your ring finger.
Now an A on the 1st string with your index finger.
And finally, a C on the 1st string with your pinky.

I love this position. You can do so much with it. It also repeats itself every 3 frets. Just move it up 3 frets, the notes are in different order but the same notes. You can keep working up the neck with this until you end up on whatever note of the A scale you want to end up on.

This is a little bit out of key, but for some reason, still sounds very musical and fun. I don't like playiung hard-core, A-tonal stuff that no one can get into but the player. That is nonsense to me but others seem to like it. Whatever floats your boat, I guess.

Sometime we can talk about whole tone scales over the V chord. That gets really hairy but very fun and still melodic.

Hope this helps.

vinni

[Serious_Poo]

Thanks for posting this, Vinni. I really appreciate it. I'm so buried in a diatonic rut right now...

:)

[Peter]

Cool Vinni!
You got one note wrong, right before you write "please forgive me if the notes are wrong", which of course I do. You mean D# - F# - A natural - C.
To go to more coolness from there: diminished chords being what they are, you can resolve to four different chords - E, G, Bb, or C#. Since we're in the key of A, E would be a likely choice, but any of those as dominant 7th chords work as a dominant to the A. Whether the notes work in the song is a different thing altogether.
however, if the IV chord goes to the V (E)...
Playing a Bb or Bbmaj7 gives you an E-b5b9 sound
a c#m7 is just an E6
a g major against E emphasizes the "blue" third (the G) which would make for some cool tension in the appropriate setting.

If the IV goes back to I, say in a blues progression resolve the d# dim...
to c#7, just like an Amaj9, nothing too outside there
E major or minor, which will work as an extension of the A chord (some kind of 9th, depending)
to G major, which will make the A sound like a dominant, and won't be too "outside".
or to Bb...hmmm. How about a Bb diminished? That would be cool. going from the d# diminished triad lick (d# - f# - a - c) to Bb diminished (Bb - Db - E - G) - it's just sliding the whole thing up a half step. I need to try that out.

Thanks again, Vinni. It's fun to think about this stuff. I'm nowhere near the point that I think like this while playing, but working it at home over and over helps add to the arsenal of "things to do while soloing".

[Vinni Smith]

Hey, thanks Peter for pointing out that error. I don't know what I was thinking. A#??? I made the change.

These are some cool ideas you have here. I will fart around with them and see what I can come up with. I am slow at times and it can take a while before things sink in though. Heh Heh Heh

But it looks like you have some stuf there that I can really sink my teeth into.

vinni

[Peter]

I have to try them out myself. I just made them up now, sitting at work.

[Vinni Smith]

I have to try them out myself. I just made them up now, sitting at work.
Heh Heh Heh

You need to get a life. Or a JOB!

vinni

[DanHund]

Anyone interested in tabbing some of those licks? I have a short attention span, and beyond major and minor, know ziltch about music theory. :)

[Peter]

Anyone interested in tabbing some of those licks? I have a short attention span, and beyond major and minor, know ziltch about music theory. :) I'll see what I can do today.

[Baba]

Thanks for laying that out Vinni, I'm totally a ear and feel player, so that will help alot. It seems I'm on here more at work than at home, but I happen to have my guitar with me today!

[Vinni Smith]

[QUOTE=Baba]Thanks for laying that out Vinni, I'm totally a ear and feel player, so that will help alot. It seems I'm on here more at work than at home, but I happen to have my guitar with me today![/QUOTE

You're welcome my friend. If you work this out and use it in this simple form for a while, your ear will get used to it and you will find a lot of different ways to do the same thing. Remember, Diminished stuff repeats itself every 3 frets. However, it sounds different because the notes are in a different order. Plus you tend to land on different positions of the tonic key afterwards.

vinni

[Vinni Smith]

BTW, you can use this series of notes with a sweep technique if you want. Just start on the C note, hammer on the D#, slide your pick over the strings for the F# and A and then simply slide the A note that you are now playing with your index finger up to the next C. Then do it all over again. Kind of a cool little ditty.

Enjoy.

vinni

[Peter]

Some tab.
Vinni’s lick, then moved up 3 frets, and again. Possible resolution notes (on an A chord) in parentheses. Only the top 3 strings used.

E | - - - 5 8 (10) | - - - 8 11 (12) - - | - - - 11 14 (15) or (17)

B | - - 7 - - - - - | - - 10 - - - - - - | - - 13 - -

G | 5 8 - - - - - - | 8 11 - - - - - - | 11 14 - -

Tab is realy hard to line up right.

[DanHund]

Some tab.
Vinni’s lick, then moved up 3 frets, and again. Possible resolution notes (on an A chord) in parentheses. Only the top 3 strings used.

E | - - - 5 8 (10) | - - - 8 11 (12) - - | - - - 11 14 (15) or (17)

B | - - 7 - - - - - | - - 10 - - - - - - | - - 13 - -

G | 5 8 - - - - - - | 8 11 - - - - - - | 11 14 - -

Tab is realy hard to line up right.
Thanks Peter. That helps. It make a big difference to me, when I can visualize a concept. Would that be over a specific chord in the progression, or played over the changes?

P.S. Aren't you supposed to be in Japan?

P.P.S. It would be super cool if there were a "tab" function for the vBulletin software

[Vinni Smith]

It make a big difference to me, when I can visualize a concept. Would that be over a specific chord in the progression, or played over the changes?

I only like the sound over the IV chord. I do use it once in a while over the I chord but it does not have the same effect to me. It works the best when that D# is pulling against the D chord.

vinni

[Peter]

P.S. Aren't you supposed to be in Japan?

P.P.S. It would be super cool if there were a "tab" function for the vBulletin software 1. Yes. Trip got postponed. Long story. Short version: I passed out in the airport, twice, and got taken to the hospital. I'm fine. Brain scan revealed nothing.
2. Yes, that would be great.

[DanHund]

1. Yes. Trip got postponed. Long story. Short version: I passed out in the airport, twice, and got taken to the hospital. I'm fine. Brain scan revealed nothing.
....
Cripes! You gotta quit drinking so much before you fly.

[jas]

Brain scan revealed nothing.
.
This bears repeating.

-John

[Vinni Smith]

Thank you Peter, for posting that tab. I have no ide how tab works.

vinni

[DanHund]

Thank you Peter, for posting that tab. I have no ide how tab works.

vinni
Do you mean, that you don't know what it is or how to read it? Basically, it's a way to tell you which fret on which string to play.

OLGA has a decent FAQ on tabbing...
http://www.olga.net/faq/tabbing.php


Or, did you mean that you don't know how to type it out?

[Vinni Smith]

Do you mean, that you don't know what it is or how to read it? Basically, it's a way to tell you which fret on which string to play.

OLGA has a decent FAQ on tabbing...
http://www.olga.net/faq/tabbing.php


Or, did you mean that you don't know how to type it out?
For some reason it just confuses the hell out of me. I know it is pretty simple but I am a bit dissfunctionable with reading and especially diagrams. I guess I could never do Peter's job!~

vinni

[bryanrheem]

on a diminished scale, which note is flat/sharp?

[tone4days]

on a diminished scale, which note is flat/sharp?alternating whole step - half step intervals starting at the root (major 2nd / minor 2nd)

Root - 2 - b3 - 4 - b5 - b6 - 6 - 7 - octave

[Vinni Smith]

alternating whole step - half step intervals starting at the root (major 2nd / minor 2nd)

Root - 2 - b3 - 4 - b5 - b6 - 6 - 7 - octave Sounds like you and Peter have more of a handle on it than me. That's for sure. I don't know what half the stuff I play is. I just know what sounds good and what works for me. Bits and pieces I have collected over the years. Oh, I am sure I could sit and figure it out but I don't know why i would. My hat is off to you guys that are on top of it though.......

vinni

[Peter]

This bears repeating.

-John Yes, but what's the source of this great line?

[Peter]

Thanks Peter. That helps. It make a big difference to me, when I can visualize a concept. Would that be over a specific chord in the progression, or played over the changes? I forgot to answer that - although Vinni did a while back. What I tabbed was Vinni's notes over a IV chord (D major) resolving to the I (A major).

[Peter]

I put some more tabs together, adding in the ideas I had way back when.
For D - A: (the / and \ denote bends)
E | - - - 5 8 - - -6 9 9/10\9 -
B | - - 7 - - - - 8- - - - - - 10
G | 5 8 - - - 6 9 - - - - - -
This is playing a Bb diminished over the A chord, finishing off with a bend on the 3rd, down to the root. I like the way it sounds. You could take the whole thing and move it up the fretboard three frets at a time.

[Vinni Smith]

I think I will work on this next, Peter. Choosing which diminished I like to toy with on the I chord. Maybe like you said the Bb dim but maybe a Robben Fordish whole/half tone dim off the tonic. I will experiment this weekend.

vinni

[Jon Silberman]

I knew if I only lived long enough and was sufficiently patient someday the incredible Vinni Smith would share a cool trick that - believe it or not - Jon Silberman would already know and use! :)

[tone4days]

Sounds like you and Peter have more of a handle on it than me. That's for sure. I don't know what half the stuff I play is. I just know what sounds good and what works for me. Bits and pieces I have collected over the years. Oh, I am sure I could sit and figure it out but I don't know why i would. My hat is off to you guys that are on top of it though.......

vinnisee, my problem is that i havent been able to get this stuff to reliably come out of my FINGERS when i need it :D .. i am long on theory and formulae, but short on instantaneous recall of this stuff (not withstanding times i am able to get it out but it hopelessly sounds like i am playing a drill instead of "MUSIC")

which is why no one pays me to play or pays to hear me :D

although, i sstopped at a local music store to pick up my 8 y.o.'s violin book, music stand, shoulder rest, etc ... and took a moment to noodle on an ibanez artcore archtop... i was doodling these ideas and a young dude with a "pointy-floyd" guitar stopped to listen ... so that must count sor something

:D

t4d

[Vinni Smith]

I knew if I only lived long enough and was sufficiently patient someday the incredible Vinni Smith would share a cool trick that - believe it or not - Jon Silberman would already know and use! :)
You know that one? Cool! It is a great trick isn't it?

vinni

[Jon Silberman]

Yes, but here's what I like to do even more. In the last measure of the I (we'll call it A for now), before you go to the IV (D), move to the A# diminished scale.

As for the chord tones you're calling up by doing that, you can call it A#dim7, A7b9, or Eb7b9 - doesn't matter, it's all good.

P.S. Robben Ford seems to especially dig these types of diminished tricks over blues chords so I figure we must be doing something right in this thread. :)

[Vinni Smith]

Yes, but here's what I like to do even more. In the last measure of the I (we'll call it A for now), before you go to the IV (D), move to the A# diminished scale.

As for the chord tones you're calling up by doing that, you can call it A#dim7, A7b9, or Eb7b9 - doesn't matter, it's all good.

P.S. Robben Ford seems to especially dig these types of diminished tricks over blues chords so I figure we must be doing something right in this thread. :)
Thanks man! I'll try that. I haven't found anything I like out of the pocket for the I chord. Maybe this will be it!

Vinni

[Jim Fisher]

Hey Vinnie,


If you would, shoot me an email so we can chat about using the Roland Cube 30 live.

Thanks!
Jim
magothy1@lycos.com

[DanHund]

I put some more tabs together, adding in the ideas I had way back when.
For D - A: (the / and \ denote bends)
E | - - - 5 8 - - -6 9 9/10\9 -
B | - - 7 - - - - 8- - - - - - 10
G | 5 8 - - - 6 9 - - - - - -
This is playing a Bb diminished over the A chord, finishing off with a bend on the 3rd, down to the root. I like the way it sounds. You could take the whole thing and move it up the fretboard three frets at a time.
Peter,

when posting tabs, use the CODE tags. It makes use of a mono-spaced font, which lines thing up real nice and neat.

E | - - - 5 8 - - -6 9 9/10\9 -
B | - - 7 - - - - 8- - - - - -10
G | 5 8 - - - 6 9 - - - - - -

[Jo]

Code tags?
What's the code for the code tags? :)

[ code ] and [ / code ]

[Peter]

Peter,

when posting tabs, use the CODE tags. It makes use of a mono-spaced font, which lines thing up real nice and neat.

E | - - - 5 8 - - -6 9 9/10\9 -
B | - - 7 - - - - 8- - - - - -10
G | 5 8 - - - 6 9 - - - - - -
Thanks! I didn't know that. Obviously. You wouldn't believe how long I spent typing spaces here and there to make mine look decent.

[DanHund]

Thanks! I didn't know that. Obviously. You wouldn't believe how long I spent typing spaces here and there to make mine look decent.
I found this rudimentary tab editor...
http://www.harmony-central.com/Software/Windows/instab-10.html

You could use that to start, then copy and paste the results to your post, wrapping it with the CODE tags to keep things lined up.

[DanHund]

I found this rudimentary tab editor...
http://www.harmony-central.com/Software/Windows/instab-10.html
....
Nevermind, you can't copy directly from the application. :rolleyes:

[tone4days]

can that program save to a text file, from which you can cut-n-paste?

[DanHund]

can that program save to a text file, from which you can cut-n-paste?
Yes. But, that begins to defeat the purpose of a "simple" solution to posting tabs on the forum. That's a hoop I'd rather not jump through, if I didn't have to. Lots of Tab editors out there, I'll keep looking.

[Tyrone Shuz]

In this case, it is NOT a tri-tone substitution as alluded to earlier. It's the famed Larry Carlton "chord on chord" thing.

If you extend a dominant 7th chord to a 7b9, and you cut the root off, you're left with a dim7 chord. Example: D7 (IV in A blues) is D F# A and C. Extended to D7b9 = D F# A C Eb. Remove the root, and you have F# A C Eb, bingo! Dim7 chord.

Since dim7 chords are symmetrical and invert every three frets w/o changing form, you can use ANY of those dim7 chords over the D7; F#dim, Adim, Cdim, or Ebdim. You can use the chord or the scale. The whole/half seems more musical to me. Basically, since the do repeat every three frets, you have a one out of three shot in hitting it just by playing any whole/half dim. scale! My old jazz guru used say that if I did a dim. idea and missed! I'd play it, make a face, he'd laugh and go, "Well, one out of three shot..."

So in summation, you can use a dim. chord OR scale based on ANY CHORD ELEMENT EXCEPT THE ROOT! That is, based on 3, 5, 7, or b9 of any dom. 7 chord. So for D7, you could use F#, A, C, or Eb diminished.

Now, Jon Silberman's trick of using the A# dim scale over A7 is the exact same idea, but it would be more apparent had he called it the Bb dim, because Bb is the b9 of A. A7b9 = A, C#, E, G, and Bb, so in addition to Bb, he could have also called it C#dim, Edim, or Gdim.

There will be a test on Wednesday.

That is all.

[Jo]

There will be a test on Wednesday.

That is all.A T..t...t...test? Eeeek!

Please sir, may I have a private lesson on Tuesday then. ;)



Jo