What's the scale?

[cswolfe]

I'm trying to learn about music, but obviously, it's a long slow process.

If I can get anybody's help in understand what this scale *is*, I'd appreciate it. The scale sorta fell out of the sky onto my head while I was working with the backing track at http://forums.birdsandmoons.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12931

And yes, i know this is older than the hills, surely, and the only "discovery" here is that I didn't know this one.

The scale "fits" over bluesy b7th chord, if that's of any help. Sorry that I'm so bloody clueless. To the left, I'll put string, to the right, I'll put fret. Run it (not that it matters) from sixth string to first.

6: 10 12 14
5: 11 12 14
4: 11 13 14
3: 11 13 14
2: 12 14 15
1: 12 14 16 (you can "resolve" it by stretching out your forth finger and ending on the A at 17 if you want instead of the G#).

I guess I'll post this then edit it while I work on it, to better "save" it, but I'm bound to make mistakes as I have just enough knowledge to be whacked and dangerous and plain out wrong.

Edit: Putting the notes would probably be a good start.

Okay:

D E F#
G# A B
C# D# E (yes, you could repeat the D but the D# seems to "throw" it better)
F# G# A
B C# D (oddly enough, going "back" to the D)
E F# G#


hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

okay, obviously, upon thinking about it, it ain't that different than a e major
E F# G# A B C# D#

So idiot here thinks it's a "straight" E scale with the 7th relative to the B (D) flatted in two of the spots.

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Okay, so I guess I need to figure out what an E major scale is relative to a B major scale unless the near 100% chance I've F'd something up already.

Edit. Interesting variation. And one thing I like about these scales in all being three notes per string is that you can hammer two of each three notes and fly if you want to.

6: 10 11 14 D D# F#
5: 11 12 14 G# A B
4: 12 13 16 D D# F#
3: 13 14 16 G# A B
2: 15 16 19 D D# F#
1: 16 17 21 G# A C# (or you could stretch your forth finger to the C# instead of using the Bs the other two times the b shows up as well)


best,

sterling

Tune in next week for another snooze inducing episode of "what the hell is sterling rambling about now?! That boy must be trying to drink his way to catching up with Frankie" ;) :o :dude:

[CustomX]

I wish I knew what even 25% of that stuff meant.

[Garrett]

I believe you have wandered into the wonderful world of Dorian, one of my favorite scales! Based on the notes, you're playing B Dorian which works over minor and 7th type chords. Try it on your favorite Santana songs.

Here's what B Dorian looks like in the 1st box position:

7 9 10
7 9 10
6 7 9
6 7 9
7 9 10
7 9 10

Now, the root is the B on the 7th fret. Now, play the same notes over a D major chord. Congrats, now you've just learned D Lydian! All you have to do is shift the root up to the 10th fret (D), and there ya go!

Listen to my solo on this track by my band to hear what D flat Lydian sounds like: http://www.donkeypunchindustries.com/p1x9s7r21/AWESOME%20-%20%5Bself%20titled%5D%20-%20bring%20you%20home.mp3

[cswolfe]

Wonderful, Garrett. Thank you!

[Garrett]

My pleasure. It was fun to figure out.

Pay it forward, my friend.

[Tom Gross]

If you ever run across a dominant chord - a "bingo chord" (D7, B13, E9) - and don't know what to do, play dorian down a string.

e.g. over E9, play B dorian.

[dilettant]

Humble-Mode: on
Well, I'm not an expert in the field of theory, but I don't think it's a _pure_ B dorian (http://www.jguitar.com/scale/B/Dorian) scale. The scale has an additional halftone-step.

[Garrett]

That's right. It's not a pure Dorian. I forgot the extra D# Sterling threw in there. My scale actually throws in a G. But I added that by accident. It should've been this, which matches the one from the link:

7 9 10
7 9 10
6 7 9
6 7 9
7 9
7 9 10

That's an awesome site, dilettant, thanks for the link.

[Peter]

A rule of thumb I like: if you come across a note that is a half step lower than the "normal" scale tone - as in the D played in the example instead of a D#, odds are it is making a Dominant 7th chord - and that it is the 7th of the chord. Hearing a D natural in an otherwise "E major" scale" makes me guess we've got an E7 chord, which is tonicizing an A chord.
English, please:p...dominant 7th chords want to resolve to the chord a 4th higher: E7 wants to go to A (minor, major, depends on the key).
I can't hear the clip on my work computer, so I don't know what key the song is in - so somebody tell me if the section in question is E7 -> A.

[cswolfe]

Peter, *if* I understand the question you're asking, and the question is where this run dropped in my lap that we've been working on labeling since surely it's been used for a zillion years ... the song in question does a simple blues I IV V progression starting with the 7th fret B7 barred.

Though, since I'm THE cluessless mascot on this thread, I'll gratefully accept any corrections.

[Peter]

Aha! Then there is Dorian scaling going on! The scale with D natural is B dorian - very nice over a B7 chord. (In general terms, dorian works well over the I in blues - even though a B7 chord has a D3 in it! I can't say why, exactly. Thirds get bent all over the place anyway. Think how much you bend the third when you solo...)
You can also play a D# over a B7 chord - particularly because it is a note in the chord. A common technique in blues is to use the major 3rd (the D# in this case) over the I (B7), then drop to the minor 3rd (D) when playing over the IV (E7, in this case).
In this example the D# is really the "odd" note. The simplest thing to play over a blues scale, minor pentatonic, has a D (B D E F# A, in this case). Trying to play a D# over E7 will sound strange (since the E7 chord has a D natural). On the Gear Page violent arguments have erupted over whether this can be done or not.

FINAL NOTE: This is actually really simple. I hate reading what I wrote and seeing that it looks complex and technical. If we could sit down with guitars and play it, it would be much better! - probably take about two minutes to figure out.:)

[cswolfe]

On the Gear Page violent arguments have erupted over whether this can be done or not.

FINAL NOTE: This is actually really simple. I hate reading what I wrote and seeing that it looks complex and technical. If we could sit down with guitars and play it, it would be much better! - probably take about two minutes to figure out.:)

Agreed Peter. :) And I feel what I presume is what a "functional illiterate" feels when he sees something on the page and has a question about it, but is frustrated becuase the whole point is that he *doesn't* have the grasp of the language in the form he needs to express it so people can help him out. :)

Hell. Threre's only one guy who should feel dopey here, in this thread (me) ... and that isn't you. Thanks so much for helping.

The one thing I *do* understand without having seen it for myself is that "On the Gear Page violent arguments have erupted over whether this can be done or not." I can certainly "here" why the "correctness" or lack thereof of that note might drive some folks up a wall.

I'm not such a purist, or I guess I'd throw hissy fits anytime somebody threw in a chromatic run or took the line "outside" for a few notes before bringing it right back in at the exact "right" moment.

I would be afraid to be *around* those guys who are gunning for "correctness" were you to pull out some atonal stuff (e.g., Strassberg(?))

[Peter]

Agreed Peter. :) And I feel what I presume is what a "functional illiterate" feels when he sees something on the page and has a question about it, but is frustrated becuase the whole point is that he *doesn't* have the grasp of the language in the form he needs to express it so people can help him out. :)

Hell. Threre's only one guy who should feel dopey here, in this thread (me) ... and that isn't you. Thanks so much for helping.

The one thing I *do* understand without having seen it for myself is that "On the Gear Page violent arguments have erupted over whether this can be done or not." I can certainly "here" why the "correctness" or lack thereof of that note might drive some folks up a wall.

I'm not such a purist, or I guess I'd throw hissy fits anytime somebody threw in a chromatic run or took the line "outside" for a few notes before bringing it right back in at the exact "right" moment.

I would be afraid to be *around* those guys who are gunning for "correctness" were you to pull out some atonal stuff (e.g., Strassberg(?))
Schoenberg.:) Whatever the level of literacy, the idea is to play what your head hears. the value of the technical knowledge is to expand your vocabulary so your brain is open to more possibilities. Arguing about what is or isn't "correct" is a pretty meaningless pursuit. After all, the great musicians are the ones who know how to break the rules well.
I'm no illiterate when it comes to the theory, but I sure am lousy at applying it to my guitar playing! Practice, listening, asking questions like you're doing in this thread, playing with others and paying attention to what they're doing - that's where improvement comes from.
Sunday I had the chance to listen to two tremendously skilled players running through changes, working with each other to stretch their range of possibilities - that was one of the most inspirational moments I have had so far. Not that I took home a single riff, scale, lick, or melodic idea - it was all so far out of my league I stood no chance. What I got out of it was the realization that the more you commit the technical stuff to your head and fingers, the more you expand your playing!

[cswolfe]

What I got out of it was the realization that the more you commit the technical stuff to your head and fingers, the more you expand your playing!
My lazy habits of playing unschooled for my whole life routinely bite me in the bee-hind. But now I could not possibly agree more with what you say and havekicked myself for the MANY years I used every rationalizion in the book to avoid hard work. My focus now has to be on doing what you're saying instead of just shooting off my mouth about it. Ah, there's the rub. :)

Like all "illiterates," I get mind-bendingly frustrated sometimes, and I just have to try pushing myself to "keep on keepin' on." Thank you.

[ShaunzNoiz]

I believe you have wandered into the wonderful world of Dorian, one of my favorite scales! Based on the notes, you're playing B Dorian which works over minor and 7th type chords. Try it on your favorite Santana songs.

Here's what B Dorian looks like in the 1st box position:

7 9 10
7 9 10
6 7 9
6 7 9
7 9 10
7 9 10

Now, the root is the B on the 7th fret. Now, play the same notes over a D major chord. Congrats, now you've just learned D Lydian! All you have to do is shift the root up to the 10th fret (D), and there ya go!

Listen to my solo on this track by my band to hear what D flat Lydian sounds like: http://www.donkeypunchindustries.com/p1x9s7r21/AWESOME%20-%20%5Bself%20titled%5D%20-%20bring%20you%20home.mp3

Why is there a G natural in there? Am I missing something?

B Dorian: B C# D E F# G# A B? Am I wrong?

[ernojuhani]

Try this in blues (basic or jazz).

1 2 b3 3 #4 5 #5 b7 7

In C:

C D Eb E F# G G# Bb B

One scale for the whole progression.

For I chord as above.

For IV: 5 6 b7 7 b9 9 #9 4 #4

For V: 4 5 #5 6 7 1 b9 #9 3 etc.

Can you say Messiaen?

ej.

[EmeraldQuiltBirds]

Don't feel bad Sterling, I am just now starting to learn how to READ music and how to understand what I am DOING!! I get so frustrated when someone tells me to do this or that and I'm just like...."WHAT!?!?!" LMAO. I am starting to practice 3 hours a day/night to get where I NEED to be. 90% of the worlds guitar players can't read music and do not have the knowledge of music theory. The other 10% are the great ones that can just about do anything. I want to be one of the 10%!!


Keep learning, that will never hurt you!

[cswolfe]

Derek, though I appreciate your point, I'm pretty shocked at what percentage of players today do seem to be music-literate. About all guitar magazines today look like relative music-theory rocket since as compared to guitar player mag 20 years ago. I took a break of many many years from guitar mags, and I was shocked (and a little horrified. ;) ) at just how "music-notation sophisticated" some of the stuff is.

Sure. Two of my heroes, Steve Howe and Nuno Bettencourt don't read music (at least steve didn't last time I checked up on him). But man. These days, not reading seems to be the exception rather than the rule, whereas 20 years ago you cold swing a cat in a ballroom full of guitar players and likely not hit a *single* person who read.

[amstaf]

I think that it's Lydian if I'm not mistaken

[cswolfe]

[/QUOTE]Okay:

D E F#
G# A B
C# D# E (yes, you could repeat the D but the D# seems to "throw" it better)
F# G# A
B C# D (oddly enough, going "back" to the D)
E F# G#[/QUOTE]
Reviting this, after Peter's VH post and getting just enough knowledge with this stuff to be dangerous.

Breaking it down like Peter did the VH, there seem to be two variations going on here. D and D#.

B C# D E F# G# A B ... and

B C# D# E F# G# A B

Keeping in mind that per the "given" (what I found it), the whole thing is over a B root. so for basis of comparison, the B ionian:

B C# D# E F# G# A# B

------------

With variation one, without the D sharped, the scale in question is:

B C# D E F# G# A B

compared to B major, giving us:

1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 8 = Dorian

------------

With variation two, with the D sharped, the scale in question is:

B C# D# E F# G# A B

compared to B major, giving us

1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 8 = Mixolydian

So on the above referenced "scale," (though starting at the tenth fret): It's really "just" B dorian or mixolydian depending on whether you sharp the D or not.